Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 895 › Conversation 895-023

Nixon, Ehrlichman & Kissinger on Watergate and Ervin Committee

Friday, April 13, 1973 · 4:22 PM–4:41 PM ET · Oval Office · 7 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.; Kissinger, Henry A.Conversation895-023 on Tape 895StartFriday, April 13, 1973 at 4:22 PMEndFriday, April 13, 1973 at 4:41 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 895-023 ↗

AI Summary

In this meeting, President Nixon discussed the ongoing Watergate investigation with John Ehrlichman, focusing on strategies for dealing with the Ervin Committee and managing testimony. Following Ehrlichman's departure, Henry Kissinger joined the President to review foreign policy concerns, specifically regarding potential military responses to North Vietnamese violations in South Vietnam. The participants also evaluated the political stability of Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev and discussed the progress of negotiations on a nuclear treaty ahead of a potential summit.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

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Incidentally, I tried to see him the other day about this, and he's been doing a speech or something, but I wouldn't get together, and yet he's been complaining that I wouldn't see him, so that he could give me his ideas.
I'm wondering if he'll give them to you, not to me.
Sure, sure.
Anyway, Chuck, why don't you go up and see Irvin?
Demand that he be the first witness, and give him the position that you ought to be the first witness.
He must be pretty confident.
I'm sure he is.
He's thought it through very carefully.
He's got a very pat line.
And he's well prepared.
How does the answer go about the pressures?
I was very anxious.
about each other.
That's all we'll do.
You know, they're right, though.
The committee can't move forward without hearing from the committee.
If you had a change of committee, it wouldn't happen.
No.
If you had a change of committee, it wouldn't happen.
It's a national story.
That's right.
They prejudice everyone.
The major thing he needs to hear, he needs to hear from you, Mr. Dresden, is that you're aware of the facts.
Oh, that you're not.
That it happened after our meeting.
And that you want him to cooperate with me and help me on this.
And that I have told you about his strategy, which is very similar, actually.
That you're very sympathetic to him.
And I agree to work very closely with you, but the secret of this is to be very, very quiet.
And that you appreciate his cooperation.
I have to make that point.
You put out, apparently, the Hague story, didn't you?
Yes, you did.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, but I mean, I wasn't thinking that Spaniak was actually, he had all of his reports, but I mean that, and I do want to see him in the night, but what's, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your, what's your,
Yeah, I just wanted to be sure, Captain.
Well, I think it's true.
Is that what Haig tells you?
Well, no, no, I think...
I wanted... Or he said we have to do it next weekend, huh?
Very shortly after.
I think we ought to get there for two days while countries are...
In what areas?
South of the...
In South Vietnam, in the belt between...
Between the two militarized countries.
We hear nothing from them.
Well, we can lay nothing on the Russians.
I think President doesn't trust him, Mr. President.
Wait a second.
Wait a second.
If you really think he is, you think that's a problem?
Of course, the President told me again that there is something he doesn't trust.
I haven't been bothered.
Maybe he's... Well, he may be using it, but he's never done that before.
He said, I'm not fooling you.
Whatever you can give me this week will be worth ten times what you can give me two weeks.
So you gave him something.
I gave him something.
Right.
But what did... Do you think maybe the impression of them may not have something?
We'll know by the end of next week.
No, we have them pretty well tied up.
Did he say anything in August?
Do you mean he might even be in trouble if we throw him out?
Yeah.
Or at least his core seems to be in trouble.
It may go to a harder line.
This is what we have to show them.
Some progress there.
Well, like on that nuclear treaty.
Oh, that?
Yeah.
Oh, some progress in our goodwill, you know, on the Salter Line, the airline with us.
But, uh...
But the Vietnamese thing, yeah.
It is just like me thinking about it.
Your present thinking is that we would have to get in South Vietnam.
That's going to be a major thing.
You know what I mean?
So what do we say we did it for?
Violations.
What we need is some shock that gets the others involved.
But, of course, we may be in front of them.
Yeah, they owe us something right there.
All right, let's go.
Got to go over this CD.
I know you do.
That's why I kept coming out.
I don't know.
I don't know.

NARA Description

On April 13, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:22 pm to 4:41 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 895-023 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 895-23

Date: April 13, 1973
Time: 4:22 pm - 4:41 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with John D. Ehrlichman.

     Watergate
          -Ehrlichman’s schedule
                -Meeting with unknown man
          -Charles W. Colson
                -Ervin Committee
                -Conversation with Ehrlichman
                      -Jeb Stuart Magruder
          -Ervin Committee
                -Press
                -Effect on Grand Jury

Henry A. Kissinger entered at 4:26 pm

     Kissinger’schedule
           -Speech

Ehrlichman left at 4:26 pm

     Joseph J. Sisco
                                       -54-

             NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                         Conversation No. 895-23 (cont’d)

     -Briefing for President’s meeting
           -Purpose
                 -Middle East
           -William P. Rogers
                 -Paris trip
           -Cooperation with Kissinger
           -Secretive nature of the meeting

Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
     -Press story
           -Source
     -Meeting with President
     -Story
           -Avoidance of indicating crisis
           -National Security Council [NSC]
           -Decision making timeline
                  -Haig’s opinion

Vietnam
     -Military action
           -Areas
                 -Demilitarized Zone [DMZ]
                 -Quang Tri
           -Supply line
     -Negotiations
           -Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]
           -North Vietnam
     -USSR
           -Leonid I. Brezhnev
                 -Political standing

USSR
    -Nuclear treaty
         -Kissinger’s work with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin
         -Dobrynin’s negotiating stance
                -Kissinger’s cooperation
         -Summit meeting
                                             -55-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                           Conversation No. 895-23 (cont’d)

                        -Schedule
            -Brezhnev’s political standing
                 -Possible removal
            -Nuclear treaty
                 -Progress
                        -USSR’s negotiating styl

      Vietnam
           -Military action in South Vietnam
                 -Justification
                        -Settlement agreement violations
                        -Shock
                               -Involvement

Kissinger left at 4:30 pm.

Also recorded on April 13, 1973

  • 038-004 2:47 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 2:47 pm and 3:54 pm.
  • 427-001 2:50 PM · 1 hr 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, unknown person(s), John D. Ehrlichman, and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:50 pm to 4:20 pm.
  • 038-005 3:54 PM · 20 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull talked on the telephone from 3:54 pm to 3:55 pm.
  • 895-024 4:31 PM · 11 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Joseph J. Sisco, Henry A. Kissinger, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 4:31 pm to 4:41 pm.
  • 038-006 4:42 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 4:42 pm and 5:07 pm.
  • 038-007 5:07 PM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone from 5:07 pm to 5:08 pm.
  • 038-008 5:08 PM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:08 pm and 5:48 pm.
  • 038-009 5:48 PM · 10 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 5:48 pm to 5:58 pm.

All 42 conversations from April 13, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 895-023, April 13, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/895-023 (accessed October 12, 2026).