Conversation 896-005

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Miami would be the place, the best place.

The view here, given that the team, you know, going as far as, uh, as the view we did a month ago or so, is that they will, uh, probably end up in a pretty big bag.

Right.

Is that right?

Could.

Now, he does not think, he does, his opinion is that they will not reach him.

No.

He does not think he's a target.

And he doesn't think he will be.

He thinks he might be, but he doesn't think he will.

And if he's not, that means he's going further than the White House.

Well, I'm not so sure he thinks that.

Oh, that's right.

He said that they may be after bigger targets.

Yeah, the same thing.

Like yours truly.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I think he's trying to get attention.

As I've heard, he's on a somewhat higher level, but he can

and he was barely a messenger, come to an agent.

He was not a principal.

Mitchell sure doesn't agree with that.

I assume Mitchell will never testify.

That would be my assumption.

Well, one thing I was thinking of that we didn't talk to, but I'm sure you thought through, that I had thought through until I was reporting to the president, is that the outcome of the Laguna thing is that there will never

So the question of what the Ruger's testimony was to is only an hour of what the grain hour is.

No, that's not right.

Because he will be indicted if he pleads guilty, if he's sentenced.

Right.

Then he's available.

To the committee?

Well, to the committee or to the court as a witness in somebody else's case.

Oh, yes.

Sure.

He's brought back in his purse and denims, changed into a business suit and put on the stand.

We just got to face the fact that

Whatever the story is, it's going to be out.

Well, you'll have the entire story out, plus probably two other stories that two other guys make out.

That's right.

And then anything and everything that's said will be believed.

And at least one of which will be enormously damaging to us.

There would be no way... Not provable, but damaging.

No way to deny it.

I don't want to, I don't want to.

What should I say to Irvin and Baker on Monday?

One thing.

Okay.

McGruder and Mitchell and others.

If they show up...

Well, they can, but the point is that the, well, all right, after the trial, after their trial, and their sentencing, they could be subpoenaed.

And they would be delivered up to the committee.

That's right.

Until they stand trial.

Well, it would prejudice their rights.

Well, then Magruder could be a witness after he's been sentenced, if he wanted to be.

Now, here's the tricky point.

Whether or not Irvin can grant immunity to someone who has been sentenced and is serving a sentence is something that I don't know whether that would make any difference or not.

I know that the judge can't.

But I don't know whether the Senate can.

I think Urban's best bet is to suspend as soon as these items are announced.

If he was smart, that's what he'd do, and just let this thing tear everything out, and then come on afterwards and touch up places that have been missed.

Start to go around the battlefield and get into the food garage.

Well, after they get through this, it's kind of a nightmare.

There's a country that once you cast in the European community, I mean, they'll go ahead, but I mean, they'll say, well, now, what the hell?

It's too old, it's too great, it's too small.

They're active people, but they can't still eat it.

Mitchell said that we should take great care to establish a

Question, do you mind about that?

And he said, no, my question is if that is where it came from.

But he said, Maurice Sands and Herb Kambach spent a week together trying to tie all these various funds down as the source.

And that's a big loose end.

Well, you better.

Let's get that money.

No, but you see, Maureen heard it.

The question was how much of it would we set aside to keep down for the 350?

Maureen.

Over there, Bob.

Either someone brought it over here or Sean over there.

Sean took the liberty to respond.

Remember, this was before the campaign started.

It was April 6th.

April 6th.

I may make a problem.

After the date of the...

The date before the study.

Okay, but...

But it was money before...

The other one was cash that had been...

Yeah, but John implied that they had bigger problems and that they had to use this money to make up some sort of new someplace else or something.

He didn't get into all this, but he said that they had problems making their accounting zone from out of even ComBot's fans.

ComBot assured me all the time that the cash from 70 was intact.

Except for some that we knew had been used.

that what was intact was, there was supposedly about two million, what was intact was about a million six.

And the question, there was way more than 350, in other words, many times that.

The question was how much of that million six, and they convinced me that you don't want the million six, or it could have been restored to two million, but you don't want that because under

And so somehow a figure of 350 was negotiated as being a reasonable figure that might be, you know, would cover what might come up that would be impossible, but that didn't hold on the campaign.

So it was no good.

It belonged to the committee.

What happened really is that it made a contribution to the committee.

The Friends of Nixon in 70 made a million three contribution to the committee and kept 350 and what it had.

That's the way I would do that.

That's the way it was.

Thank you.

uh i think we're going to be uh i don't want to be hammered into those hearings

It said we don't want to turn it into a circus.

We are willing to have trouble, not only under the right circumstances.

Well, you've got a public history of releasing the record of your negotiations, don't you?

Yes.

So you're saying that this is what we offer?

Yes.

We stand ready to meet this offer, whatever the enemy is willing to come up with.

Very clever.

OK.

Question from the middle line.

You tell them we're just bombing.

OK.

I think it will, probably not in the light of the, you know, from the grand jury and so on.

I still think you could, you know, maybe it can be done, but there ought to be a way to turn the grand jury then strongly on our way, which is that...

proper process of justice, which is bringing people even at the very highest level to account.

I have to be unwilling to tell the press what I discovered because of the rights of individuals.

Unless we want to get Mitchell and Magruder off, I can sure as hell give them an ironclad defense.

I could prejudice their rights in such a way that they all never get a fair trial.

I guess you're right.

I can't do it.

Well, that's the problem.

Right.

Well, I'm going to put you on the prejudice of their rights.

Well, how about if I were to do this?

You get your indictment, but you don't get any voting yet.

I could say that I made a report.

I could say that I made a deal.

I could say that you instructed me to do certain things.

One of the things you instructed me to do was talk to my broker.

And the other thing he was instructing me to do was talk to the Attorney General.

And I did all those things.

And then I wouldn't mention who else.

I could say I talked to other people.

I am not going to get into any other names of any people.

That's what he did.

I don't know.

You always tell me what not to do, don't you?

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

That's complicated.

Oh, wow.

Aren't we really sort of in a position to be better?

I'm not sure.

I'm not very sure.

I mean, at least pull the fire on something there.

I mean, I need you to do it.

There may, it seems to me, that a hell of a lot of the issues about reducing all this are in the way to kind of pay the fact that we're willing to cooperate.

We're willing to raise an executive priority and keeping our people silent.

That's what I agree.

We will get, I've always argued that that's the right, that that's the point, that counter-argument.

I can do a one-day plus story, the price for which is weeks of disaster.

But the thing that's wrong with that is, while it's a one-day plus story, it's also the elimination of 90 days of negative story before you ever get up there.

That's the point.

Setting up 90 days of other negative story.

More negative story.

Well, maybe, maybe.

That's the question.

How much more negative is it?

You can have it there, and then have the senators go out

You could have peace with honor if we could get them to agree, as I believe they will, that executive privilege is reserved for what's on the question sheet.

That's right.

I mean, no, you don't have privilege regarding any individual question, right?

Right.

But if you allow us to appear, the merits of each individual question as to whether it's really security or not has to be weighed in question by question.

It will be by your representative and some people in this.

Because, happy dream, that I go up there charging away at the Senate.

It doesn't work.

I did have an answer to the point here, too, and I thought about it.

It doesn't want to be the first one to say the words before it makes sense.

Although, like you say, I do think that we still ought to consider, we still consider the possibility of getting home.

It's a great story.

Yes, I think getting out the Holland story will be more useful in the light of the Grutter and others going down the test path.

In other words, you can get that out before the test path.

It's possible.

Before the test path.

The best story to get out would be on one of those stories.

about how we've been working on it, which means Henry's objections.

Well, it's the whole of the story that you added to it, which is the whole of the thing.

So, basically, all that I have to say is, actually, what's the whole of it?

I have to say, basically, is how we've been hurling the report.

So, you talked about the Gene report.

Uh, you know, I, that is something I've been hurling the report.

It would be nice if there was a situation regarding the White House involvement.

I haven't gone to the committee yet.

No?

The current charges.

Now, the current charges are the last of all, but primarily they're all of the charges.

Well, I didn't go into White House involvement.

I assume that what you needed to know from me, and I mean, this would be what I would say, what the president needed to know was the truth or falsity of charges that were leaking out with regard to committee for the reelection personnel.

and any connections to the White House that might exist.

So that was the area.

But rather than whether anybody in the White House was involved in it.

I made a program to get you out there in a way that you didn't have to go in and all that stuff across the street.

I understand.

Because of the fact that you're going to go before the indictments.

Well, I do it before the indictments and say, look, we have great confidence in the grand jury process.

And I don't want to do anything

that is going to in any way impair that process.

The number of people who have been called for that grand jury, I'm not going to lie.

The, the, I'm not saying everything I've done is that there's no justice in that.

Exactly.

Relating to that.

And I doubt seriously that I discovered anything new.

What I probably did was simply bring into the White House for the first time a body of information that otherwise was available.

a lot better.

But we had had no occasion previously to bring all that information before us.

I talked to Kleindienst, so I got what the Justice Department had.

I got stuff from all over.

And we brought it in, and we tried to assemble it in a way that was meaningful for the President.

Did you review the FBI files?

No.

Why not?

That's the original source.

You said it was the most extensive investigation in history.

Why didn't they let you look at it?

I didn't look at it because I didn't need to look at it.

I got a summary.

And the Justice Department.

I didn't try and duplicate the work of the U.S. Attorney.

What I tried to do was simply determine for the president's use and for the president's use only whether or not there was substance to charges that we were hearing and whether or not there was White House involvement with relation to those charges.

and to determine whether or not the White House wanted to be doing anything about its own personnel or about others that it was not doing.

We were not trying to determine what the U.S. attorney should do or the grand jury should do or the Justice Department should do.

The same thing with these bills.

For us to withhold anything from the Justice Department, it would have thought that some of this information might not have been previously available to us.

So I'm not going to go into it.

I'm not going to tell you specifically what I found because obviously the purpose of my work was simply for the President to form judgments, as a basis for the President to form judgments with regard to White House personnel and other government personnel.

to determine whether or not the White House was actually in any way impeding the progress of the prosecutorial effort — excuse me — by anything that we were inadvertently doing.

And so that — that's not very fancy, and I'd want to think that through and try to — Oh, I should — I just put that out.

Just put that out and do it — hang it on the peg of the Urban Committee setting date.

the hearings.

They will, they will, they will Wednesday, they will Wednesday announce their hearing schedule.

And all of them make a statement.

All of them make a statement and say, well, I've been sitting here waiting for a chance to be heard.

It's obvious now that it's going to be empty on days before that we take their case.

But 1st of May is the earliest when they start.

And they're going to sit with me here for six weeks before the hearing.

before us, so he can say, now it looks like it'll be several months before I would get a chance to be heard before the Urban Committee invests.

And so, I'd like to make a statement.

This is going to a number of charges that have been... That have been for abandonment of rights.

Right.

And yet, the way I would handle that, I would say, now that the State of Oregon is ready to... Now, at first, I was thinking, what are you... You're saying, I had no knowledge, etc., etc., etc.

Now here are the facts.

What I do is clearly establish, which is totally supported, that Segretti's instructions were that he was to do nothing illegal.

And in answer to the question of how can you launch a guy out and say, don't do anything, that's one of the reasons that they, that his being a lawyer is now, now here's what's in it.

And the third, there are the charges of money, of money for good actions.

I have a whole list of different charges about the findings of the money.

I'd love it in that order.

See, that ties to the same fund that Combox.

He gets the question, how can I authorize expenditure funds for Segreta?

I've already established in Segretti that you can't get these funds up there for the campaign.

That's what I would assume you would do.

Right.

He was in Australia, so I would have to check it.

These funds were in the middle, and so forth, and so on.

They were used only for $28,000.

They were used for $28,000.

And the balance of $500,000 and $28,000.

What?

That's good.

I'm gonna tell them to hand it.

Whatever it was, it wasn't.

I was scared to death the next time.

John, you were close enough that it wasn't.

At least that's what we're... Mitchell kept lobbying out little tidbits about Colson's operation.

About sending rioters up to the Capitol sets and other things.

What do you know about it?

Well, that was separate from all the Mitchell stuff.

well he was he was saying it's really too bad that all this is coming out because there's so much sort of stuff that would be that would be

My father-in-law is not commending the Cairo charge.

That's right.

I think he should say that commending them.

Do you agree with that, Bob?

I don't know.

I'm going to go twice.

It's weak in my belly.

Yes, you've got to say.

I think I'm going to make it in, I don't mean to make it in general terms, but hold, hold the white to it.

I suppose the white is setting some examples and saying, oh, at least you're done by the others.

Then I hold off on the thing of, I request that you may look into it.

When I look at it, I say, as a matter of fact, you know, I understand that.

I do feel that we should get this ready.

It's really bouncing.

I think that's the way to do it.

I'm just not going to do it.

I said, it's ready, the building is ready, but it's closed.

But it's sure, off the wall.

We already, that's a sure, that's bad.

And it says it's a committee that I cannot allow, that I cannot allow the reputation, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

I will make this statement under oath.

I will make this statement under oath and answer questions under oath.

That's pretty good.

I do not suggest that I only try to cover the statement.

But charges have been made to date.

That's what I've said.

And I am sure that others will be made.

I am prepared to answer those as well.

But I can't possibly anticipate, well, I cannot anticipate them.

I do not, I cannot anticipate them.

I would be prepared to answer them.

He will, thereby, have answered three major questions why I came today.

Now, the only question that you have left is, I suppose, sort of the peripheral effect of the things that are going on around here, as you and all of us in this community.

Why did you defend this?

And I can't believe it.

I can't believe the devotion and conspiracy that you've cast for that, that you've made it to play.

But I guess it wishfully, incidentally, could strongly be very helpful for you to say what that $22,000 is for for your insurance plan.

He will have to.

I can't imagine that they would.

Well, they haven't asked me yet.

No, but they will.

Because $22,000 is a total of $13,000.

Makes sense.

Are you sure this doesn't have anything?

Huh?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's me, sir.

Why don't you just say yes?

I probably better get up and get set up for death.

Let me ask you, did there something else, Gordon?

Gordon, I was supposed to ask Gordon.

That it was delivered in pieces.

Oh, yeah.

$40,000.

Why did you deliver it?

Because actually it was...

Thank you.

Well, for them, obviously, to figure out how to receive back all this cash.

And they requested that .

All at once.

Hardly the time to ask for it.

My interest was delivering all of it as quickly as possible.

I don't know what they're .

Bringing two lawyers.

Let's do it.

Well, we'll see.

Everyone else is to see the motive for what it was.

I guess we're not surprised, Mitchell, are we?

No.

It's partly true.

What are you saying is partly true?

I don't think he did put them together.

He knows I did it, right?

Okay.

The question that I should be asking myself.

Is that at all a happy song?

So his song all around.

What do you think about that?

That's exactly the point.

You've got to know who you mess with the second time.

I'm seeing something that really isn't good.

I don't know.

That was the thing I was trying to get at this morning.

What that proves is that the president's course was right.

The president wasn't covering it up.

The president was cooperating with the proper police, and the proper police has come to the proper result, which is to find out in an orderly manner without tarring innocent people.

I don't know what's going on.

I don't think they understand.

Except for a few.

Only sticky liquid on that is deep.

I can't understand because sticky liquid on that is deep.

I can't understand because it is interested.

It is interested.

As long as everyone else is to see the motive for what it was.

I guess we're not surprised, Mitchell, are we?

Not surprised, Mitchell, are we?

No.

It's part of the truth.

I mean this.

It's part of the truth.

I mean this.

What are you saying is part of the truth?

I don't think what he's saying is part of the truth.

I don't think he did put them together.

He did put them together.

He knows everything, right?

Is that a question?

I should...

He knows everything, right?

Is that a question?

You're allowed to take a seat.

You'll never, you'll never lose.

I don't think that's what it says on the back.

You've got to know that that's what they're saying.

Thank you.

what that proves is the president's course was right

I don't know.

That's the person who's cooperating with the proper place, and the proper place has come to the proper result, which is to find out in an orderly manner.

That was the thing I was trying to get at this morning.

What that proves is the presence without starring innocent people.

Because if the president's course was right, the president must have covered it up.

The president is cooperating with the proper place, and the proper place has come to the proper result, which is to find out in a court.

We don't know what they're saying.

They're saying, oh, they're wrong.

It's always the case that things here are right.

I don't know what's going on.

I don't know what they're saying.

Yeah.

Except for a few.

I think it should be a kind of series of peace of words.

Well, you're giving them.

The global, which is beautiful.

But it's for world peace.

It's just nothing I care about more than peace.

There's nobody in the world who cares more about peace than I do.

Ron, check one thing and tell me when I get there as to whether they will have a moment of silence or truth.

Johnson.

Okay, thank you.

Huh?

I know it won't happen, but I'll just be sure.

And if there are many of them, if there are not, I may have one.

I don't know.

Let me get you down.

No, sir.

I'm not very confident and so forth.

I did do great.

Are you trying to ?

Yeah, John.

He said, stay on the stand .

Maybe better, if it looks like it's a good idea for you to be there, just be available.

He wants you to come out fast.

So I don't understand that.

He's had it for 40 minutes.

But he still hasn't.

I called.

It took a long time to get him.

He was not available.

So I finally got his.

Excuse me.

But his lawyer said he could reach him in about an hour, which he did.

I haven't had him call me.

Well, Jeff said, no, no.

I said, I started out by saying, you know, there had been some debauches.

And we reviewed this whole thing with the president.

He thought it was important that you and your lawyer meet with John Irwin right away and just get a look up to date on where things stand from this time.

And he said, fine, I can do that.

I can't make it till about 4 o'clock.

That's the way it's done.

But he then said, you know, this whole thing is, he said, I don't know if you know the situation, but it's all done now.

And that's what it means.

And he said, well, I decided last night, late last night, with my lawyers, that I would go ahead and you told me to do what you

He said he couldn't advise me and my physician told him, yes sir.

So he called saying what does Bob want you to do?

And I told Larry to tell him that I was not in a position to tell him what to do, that that was, whatever, this was last week, that was a decision he had to make.

And I worked out with his advisors that that didn't, you know, make it.

He said they had decided last night that he would have to tell all and his lawyers met with Silbert today and informed Silbert that Magruder was ready to tell all and requested an opportunity for him to do so.

He doesn't know what the timing is but the plan is that he will meet first with Silbert and review what he's going to say and then Silbert will take him to the Grand Jury.

Now, they've got a deal.

Jeff said, the first place I did not ask for immunity.

Because I didn't feel I was entitled to it.

He said, the reason I'm going to tell everything is because they're going to get it anyway.

They've got witnesses on witnesses now.

And there's no reason for me to be quiet because they don't, they've got everything anyhow.

So, I guess Silver stole his lawyers.

And, uh, this is damn good.

Prosecuting for myself.

See, he called saying, sure, they've done the facts and they'll be able to prove it, but they've done the facts and they'll be able to prove it, but they've done the facts and they'll be able to prove it, but the computer says not to prove it.

The computer says not to prove it.

He said the only

He said, the only thing I gain out of this is the hope that I don't go up for all the- He said, the only thing I gain out of this is the hope that I don't go up for

He says they got me on six or eight counts of perjury, two counts of conspiracy, and two counts of...

The only thing I gain out of this is the hope that I don't go out for all the counts they got me.

He says it's obstruction of justice and potential.

And that ends up with six or eight counts of perjury, two counts of conspiracy, and two counts of perjury.

two counts of conspiracy and two counts of obstruction of justice and potential.

And that ends up with sentences of 135 to 160 years in jail.

And he says, my lawyer's steel in the fight of obstruction of justice.

My lawyers feel that if I open up on this and they open up on this and they've made a discussion, they haven't made a deal apparently.

They haven't made a discussion, they haven't made a deal apparently.

Potentially.

And that ends up with sentences of 130 minutes.

Ms. Silver, as to what the, as he has been told that the process will be 60 years each other.

Ms. Silver,

as to what they'll do, but as he has been told, as my lawyers feel, the way the process will work is that he'll give his information and they'll determine from the information what might open up until work is that he'll give his information and they'll determine as to what they've made it from the information discussion, what they've made it, the counts they'll seek to indict him on.

They'll then take it before the grand jury and go for a limited number of counts.

He will then plead guilty.

To all counts, he will not stand trial.

To all counts.

Counts, they'll seek to indict him.

They'll then take him before the grand season.

He will not stand trial.

and go for grand jury indictment, only testifying to grand jury.

And whatever they bring as evidence, take guilty pleas on a limited number of counts.

He told me that whole thing in light of his vote.

And he told me that whole thing in light of an unbroken voice.

He will listen and plead guilty in an unbroken voice.

And to all counts, he will not stand trial.

So he will not testify in front of the court.

He will only testify in front of the jury.

And whatever they bring as a guidance, he'll take the guilty pleas on and go to jail.

He's prepared for it.

He told me that whole thing in a broken voice and showed more strength than I, showed more strength than I, coming in, coming in.

He obviously, obviously,

He obviously worked his way through it in his own mind.

Terrible.

Get to what's involved, but it's... Get to what's involved, but it's...

You've got to understand, Bob, is that this whole thing is going down the drain.

This side would suspect these lawyers would talk to each other.

He said the road, he said the road, everybody involved here is going to chronify.

This side would suspect these lawyers, everybody involved here is going to talk to each other.

He said it's going to go, go.

With the exception of John.

He said the road everybody involved here is going to go with the exception of John.

Unfortunately, I had this conversation just as John Mitchell was driving up the driveway.

I held...

Unfortunately, I had this conversation just as John Mitchell was driving up the driveway.

I held...

I had Mitchell go...

I heard all of this before you had me, Mitchell.

I needed to know this before you had me, Mitchell.

And he has not, Jeff has not told Mitchell that Mitchell go to jail or something like that.

Jeff has not heard all this before.

He has not told Mitchell of his decision yet.

He said, I want to make my decision.

And then my lawyers were working.

He said, I want to make my decision.

And then my guy was sober this morning.

And then my lawyers were working.

And then my guy was sober this morning.

And then my next step is to tell him.

He has not told Mitchell of his decision yet.

He said, I want to make my next step is to tell him.

Jeff says unfortunately

I will, to a degree, implicate John B. to, to a degree, implicate John B. to, or possibly to some degree, Gordon.

Or possibly to some degree, Gordon.

What about the White House?

And I hate to do it, but he said, Jeff, where I am now, there's nothing I can do.

He says, unfortunately,

And I hate to do it, but he said, where I am now, there's nothing I can do.

I have a faulty conscience.

So there's no way that anything I do, I will get to you to a degree implicated.

Only one thing.

So there's no way that anything I do will get to you, John Dean.

Only one thing.

I'm Gordon Carson.

To Gordon Carson.

Well,

Well, John Dean, I don't think it troubles Dean.

That doesn't trouble me.

I don't think it troubles Dean.

And I hate to do this, John Dean is on his attendance at those meetings.

Or he gives John Dean his meetings.

Or I am not.

No, he's on his attendance at those meetings.

The problem there is that...

The problem there is...

The discussion at those meetings clearly...

So there's no way that...

Specifically did involve bugging...

The discussion at those meetings clearly and specifically... Did anything I do will get to you.

...involve bugging.

...every night.

I don't think Magooder knows about the aftermath.

That doesn't trouble me.

I don't think it troubles Dean.

Where he gets John Dean is on his attendance at those meetings.

What about the aftermath?

The aftermath?

No.

I don't think Magooder knows about the aftermath.

Where does it get garbage?

He says it gets garbage on...

He still applies at least to Gordon.

He knew about it before.

He knew what they were going to do.

I know what they were going to do.

Gordon tells me he did not.

If he's asked you earlier.

If he asked you about it before.

Because that's what people say.

Mr. Johnson has no problem with that.

Mr. Johnson has no problem

After the fact, there are materials that I can now surmise were what he's referring to.

There are materials that I can now surmise were what he's referring to.

They were not at the time identified.

identified in any way, any way as being the result of wiretaps.

I did not know they were.

There was a, as being the result of wiretaps.

I did not know they were.

There was a, they were a, that's what they were saying.

They were a, tons of stuff.

Get me some, tons of stuff.

Get me some wiretaps.

I said, I'm sure Gordon never sent them to Bob because they were all trash.

Because they were all trash.

There was nothing in them.

He said the tragedy in this whole thing is that it produced nothing.

In this whole thing is that it produced nothing.

He'll say, after the fact, there are materials that I can now...

The thing I got before was that he sent Peter to...

The thing I got before was that he sent Peter to... ...strive for what he's referring to.

One went to him, and one went to... One went to him, and one went to... Strong.

Went to...

Those aren't a problem.

They're not at the time identified in any way as being.

Those aren't a problem.

They're a result of our territory.

I did not know that.

I hope that reports came to me.

There was a, they were amongst us.

I hope that...

They can't.

He said, I'm sure Gordon never sent them to Bob because they were all trash.

There was nothing.

He said, the tragedy of this whole thing is that it produced nothing.

The thing I got before was that he sent either two.

One went to him and one went to John.

Those aren't a problem there.

I think the reports came to the White House basically because of your office when they said that.

Sir, this doesn't ever have to come out.

I know they don't ask you for the grant, they don't ask you for the grant, sir.

They do ask you for the grant, sir.

They do ask you to go to the grand jury.

I know a grand jury.

Grand jury is secret.

They ask you to go to the grand jury.

They do ask you to go to the grand jury.

Grand jury.

The only way we'll come out is if they decide to window...

The only way we'll come out is if they decide to window... EJ?

EJ?

but they have no interest in looking strong at all.

He generally doesn't look strong at all.

And they have all this time, but they don't, they feel, and I can see why they look strong as a, like I said, they don't, they feel, and I can see why they look strong, they have no interest in looking strong at all.

And they have all this time, like a secretary,

He's useful as a secretary, a witness.

He's useful as a witness.

But they don't, they feel, and I can see why they look strong as a, like a secretary.

He's useful as a witness.

That was his... That was his connection, strong, resentful journalist.

Connection, strong, resentful journalist.

That was his connection.

Yeah.

Yeah, he applies.

He applies.

Perhaps, perhaps in your earlier, in your earlier stuff, he doesn't now directly, he doesn't say, he doesn't now directly, he doesn't say anything now directly.

Yeah, he applies.

Perhaps now directly in his earlier stuff that Sean knew about it before, in his earlier stuff that Sean knew about it beforehand.

Stront knew they were bugging Waterman.

Stront says he didn't.

In an earlier stop, he doesn't now.

Directly, he doesn't say anything now, directly.

In his earlier stop, Stront says he didn't.

In an earlier stop, Stront knew about it.

And Jeb has applied a lot of things.

Stront knew they were bugging Waterman.

John says he didn't.

And Jeb has applied a lot of things that I know aren't true and other things that other people say aren't true.

So I have no idea whether he believes now that I know aren't true and other things that other people say aren't true.

So I have no idea.

So I think one of the problems Jeb has is he's not sure what is true at this point.

Because he's not sure what is true at this time.

I don't even know whether he believes now.

So I think one of the problems Jeff has is he's not sure what is true.

Do you tell Drew Mickey?

At this time.

Do you tell Drew Mickey?

He tells me that he's sorry.

It probably hurt me.

And it may hurt Gordon.

See, that's the kind of thing, you know, from his judgment.

See, that's the kind of thing.

He's looking at things a little differently.

He tells me that he's sorry about this because it'll probably hurt me.

And it may hurt Gordon.

He thought that there was a monumental problem.

If word ever got out that he had doled $8,000 out to buy either that or books.

Now, I don't consider that a problem at all.

It is judgment.

He thought that there was a monumental problem if word ever got out that he had doled $8,000 out to buy either that or books.

We know what we're buying.

We're trying to get it on the bestseller list, but it's hard to know what we're buying.

So there was a book that was of great interest to our support.

I don't consider that a problem at all.

See, that's the kind of thing, you know, from his judgment, he was used to giving them some background information.

We know why we were buying it.

We were buying it to try to get it on the bestseller list.

But we heard that we were buying it because it was a book that was of great interest to our supporters.

It was used to give them some background information.

We bought a lot of copies out of this entity.

But we did.

We did.

He thought that there was a monumental problem if word ever got out that he had doled $8,000 out to buy Edith Eckhart books.

Now I don't consider that a problem at all.

is there anything

Is there anything that hasn't come out yet?

I'm hoping something has.

I'm sure it's been in five.

You know, all of us have access to everything.

I mean, the broad implication is clearly there.

Everybody's here trying to get me out.

That's what I said.

John thought about the water gate.

That's my idea.

So people tell us to come in direct.

You know, I'm sure there's been a lot.

You know, all of that, all of that access to everything.

I mean, the road location is quick.

You know, all of that, access to everything.

Everybody should turn to kids.

I had a brother who had a location in Pasadena.

He was clearly there.

I said, do you know where he is?

He said, John.

I thought about it a lot.

Perfect.

I said, Mike, everybody gets a place in Pasadena.

Everybody should turn to kids.

I had a brother who had a location in Pasadena.

So B.B.

tells him in Pasadena.

I said, tell me where he is.

So Beebe tells them to call me direct.

Just, Beebe knows better than that.

Well, well, well, Beebe, Beebe's sorry.

I just told you.

I didn't think about all this in our...

Naturally, etc, etc, etc.

Of course, we've got the ego.

Naturally, the ego.

Rest.

Naturally, the ego.

Rest.

And you know, I mean, yes, you've got it.

And I don't really know.

I just don't know what the hell to do.

And I don't really know.

He is, this is man.

His heart.

He is, this is man.

His heart.

And he's fine.

He's fine.

And he's fine.

It's not intended to end.

Move off, move off, it's not in tan position.

Move off, move off.

In that position.

He appreciated the message of...

He appreciated the message of... That, that, uh...

Feeling?

That, uh...

Feeling?

That, uh...

feeling, between you and him, between you and him, between you and him, he started better, he started better, and he, he started better, and he, and he, appreciated, appreciated, he did watch him, he did watch him here, and put a hug here, appreciated watching him here, and

But how did you do this little chat?

Well, I started out by saying that this is

That I had presented you with a set of conclusions.

Conclusions.

that were admittedly hearsay, but then pointed in the direction of, that were admittedly hearsay, but then pointed in the direction of, that were admittedly hearsay, but then pointed in the direction of the, of his exposure, the, of his exposure in jabs and other times,

of his exposure and Jeb's and other people, and that you were having me systematically talk to these people, because in the course of this investigation, you were having me systematically talk to these people, because in the course of this investigation, we had discovered a frame of mind, discovered, and Jeb's and other people, and that you were having me systematically talk to these people, because in the course of this investigation, we had discovered a frame of mind,

on the part of Frank of mine, on the part of some people, that they should stand mute in order to help the president.

Some people, that they should stand mute in order to help the president.

And that your sense was that the presidency was not, and that your sense was that helped, that presidency was not helped, some people.

that they should stand in order to help the president.

And that your sense was that the presidency was not helped by that.

And that it was not my purpose by that.

And that it was not my purpose to tell anybody what he should do by that.

And that it was not my purpose to tell anybody what he should do.

But only to tell him that, as far as your view of the interests of the presidency were concerned, that they were not served by a person standing mute.

For that only to tell anybody what he should do.

But only to tell him that, but only as far as your view, tell him there might be plenty of reasons why a person would want to stand here to put the government on its proof.

And that would be of the interest of the president of the question.

And obviously, and then he said, well, then what you're saying to me is that the president's reserved that they were concerned.

That they were not concerned as far as your view of the interests of the presidency were concerned by a person standing that for that, for that, they were not certain reason alone.

Now, there might be a reason by why a person would want to stand with the governor.

person standing mute and that was the question for that only for that reason alone there might be obviously and then he said well then what you're saying many reasons why a person would want to stay is that the president's reserving that you can put the government on its proof and that was the question and obviously and then he said well then what you're saying to me is that the president's reserving to give me all my options and i said of course you know my options and i said of course he is john the only thing that he doesn't want you to feel is

you don't have the option of going in, you don't have the option of going in and talking if you want to do so.

You know all my options.

And I said, of course he is, John.

The only thing that he doesn't want you to feel is that you don't have the option of going in, that you have completely every option of talking if you want to do so.

And talking, you have completely every option to go in or not to go in.

And he said, to go in or not to go in.

if you want to do so that you have completed and he simply every option to go in or not to go in and he said well he appreciated that that he had appreciated that that he had not been taking them and taking them appreciated that that he had not been taking the position position he had for the reason he had for the reason that he thought that he thought he was necessary he was necessarily

presence but he said you know he's but he said character you know he's just working the presence

But he said, you know, these characters pull this thing off without my knowledge.

These characters pull this thing off without my knowledge.

He said, I never saw Liddy for months of the time.

And he said, I didn't know what they were up to.

And he said, I didn't know.

He said, nobody was watching what they were up to.

And he said...

And he said, I didn't know it.

Nobody was more surprised than I was.

And he said, nobody was more surprised than I was.

We had this meeting.

And we had this meeting.

And he lobbed.

He was surprised than I was.

He lobbed.

We had this meeting.

Mudballs at the White House.

And he had every opportunity.

He was very excited at the White House.

He drank every opportunity.

It was very interesting how he dragged them.

He lobbed mud balls at the White House at every opportunity.

One after the other.

But for instance, he said that one after the other.

But for instance, he said that there were these meetings.

There were these meetings.

It was very interesting how he dragged these characters.

One after the other.

But for instance, these characters came over to my office.

Here's Cable's.

And he went over to my office.

uh, that he put on this $1 presentation, which was, uh, that he said that there were these meetings, uh, uh, these characters were perfectly ridiculous.

He put on this $1 presentation, which was perfectly ridiculous.

As it comes to the origin of that, of course, as it comes to the origin of that, of course, was in the White House where Bob Holt and I talked about my office and, uh,

uh that he put on it something called the app operation they had a white house where bob holton and i talked about something called the app operation sandwich that was which that was really really the grandfather's missile on press grandfather's missile station of course

And of course, that was never put together because we couldn't get the right people to do it.

They were talking about Joe Woods and people of that kind.

And so he said that never happened.

We couldn't get the right people to do it.

As it comes to the origin of that, of course, was in the White House where Bob Holt and I talked about something called Operation Sandwich.

That was really the grandfather of this whole thing.

And, of course, that was never put together because we couldn't get the right people to do it.

But Sandwich is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is.

So then he went on to say that, uh, so then he went on to say that, uh, so then he went on to say that, uh, uh, uh, uh,

He's still up on the only three meetings.

Yes.

We had been at work on this for some time.

He needed it.

No.

He needed it.

No.

And that, uh...

and that at the time I was ready to report to you, at the time I was ready to report to you my tentative conclusions, and they were no more than that.

My tentative conclusions, and they were no more than that.

You felt that they were sufficiently serious.

You felt that they were sufficiently serious that, well, that you felt that one overriding, that, well, that you felt that one overriding

Aspect of the report was that some people evidently were hanging back, feeling that they were right.

Aspect of the report was that some people evidently were hanging back, feeling that they were somehow doing the president a favor, that the president had to be personally transmitted to them.

his view that this ought to be a complete open affair, that the President had me personally transmit to them his view that this ought to be a complete open thing, that may or may not have played some part in General Grutter's subsequent, okay, that may or may not have played some part in General Grutter's subsequent disclosures to the grand jury, in any disclosures to the grand jury.

In any event,

Rather than for us simply to hold the information that we did have in the White House, we turned it over to the Justice Department.

And in the White House, we turned it over to the Justice Department for whatever disposition they wanted to make.

Mitchell was dialed in to your unix runway, don't you?

Yep.

I think so.

I can't guarantee it though.

Mitchell was dialed in to your unix runway, don't you?

Yep.

I think so.

I can't guarantee it though.

I would be amazed.

Once Rutter goes in there.

Oh, that's plenty.

He was in there.

The way of corroborating.

All right, so the way of corroborating.

Let's go down the road.

All right.

So let's go down the road.

It's about it.

Could be.

Could be all of these.

Could be.

It will not be before May 15th at the earliest.

And now.

Could be, although Dean feels it will not be before May 15th at the earliest.

And now with a glut of people coming, with a glut of people coming in, it may be later than that.

Could be toward the end of.

It may be later than that.

Could be toward the end of.

Don't want to do it all at once.

I might have Dick and I might have Dick and Joe

Come over at 5 o'clock.

Joe.

Come over at 5 o'clock.

And tell them what we've done.

Tell them what we've done.

Tell them that I will reduce the risk.

Why don't we do it as soon as we can?

It seems like we always have a drum on the lawn when these things are going off.

They had a band out there when the hippos came in.

They were going off.

Oh, really?

Uh, would you, uh, the van out there when people came in?

Mm-hmm.

Check.

Do you have a CSA?

Oh, really?

Uh, would you, uh, check?

Sure.

What was the situation?

Do you have a CSA?

Sure.

What was the situation?

Well, I think you'd have maybe a better chance of getting a judge.

Well, I think you'd have maybe a better chance in a different venue of getting a judge.

And you had somebody here in Washington who would feel the political... And you had somebody here in Washington who would feel just letting the Senate go on.

The political heat of letting the Senate go on.

I don't know how to calculate that.

That's okay.

It's a good question.

I don't know how to calculate that.

That's okay.

It's a good question.

But, I mean, you'd have to have it in a place like Missoula, Montana.

This is the name.

I'm so sorry.

Both change and pass the rules of the city.