Conversation 896-006

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Yeah, I heard you did.

I thought you ought to take it.

Today.

He's coming to the church, so I'm not seeing any O.P.

He said he'd been up most of the night with Titus.

Who's Titus?

The U.S. Attorney in the District.

And, uh, what's the other ball's name?

Silver.

No, not Silver.

Klan's refused.

Bo Petersen.

I'm going to see if she wants to talk to me.

We're going to be together.

So, I'm going to see what he has to say.

I, for some, miss the special prosecutor thing and other things.

I don't know what else to do.

I don't know either.

He obviously gets Titus in to find out what the progress is in the grand jury.

So he's now better posted than he has been, I'm sure.

And he's probably a little better with Titus for not keeping him better posted if in fact he wasn't.

With regard to this special prosecution,

Let's think about it.

He wants a special prosecutor so that- He can stay on.

He can stay on and so that he doesn't have any, so that he personally doesn't paint the process by reason of his closeness to Mitchell.

And that makes sense.

Steve does not have that problem.

And Snead is controlled within limits.

And I think it's credible.

I may be wrong about his credibility.

I agree that something is credible.

The reason I think it's credible is something else.

This is the grand jury.

Sometimes I come true with some of the diets.

I mean, supposedly there's a diet recruiter in Michigan.

I'm still in the Middle East.

I assume we'll feel that his mandate

is to, yeah, yeah.

And that's just an additional risk which you wouldn't have with the deacon who's been part of the process.

I just, I don't think.

That's right.

He's in church apparently.

Fickler will be here at church when he's coming over.

So I'll see him while you're seeing him.

I suppose Colson's is about to, I guess, hunt him.

But, which, of course, should tie Colson in right to the... No.

...of his ass.

No.

No, really not.

Not at this point.

You have to depend on Hunt's natural secrecy and secretiveness.

He's apparently, he has perjured himself a second time.

He perjured himself in the trial, then he was granted immunity, came back into the grand jury, perjured himself again.

The US attorney is looking down his throat.

I could say to him, look, I can forget some of these counts.

If you're a good boy.

Yeah, but the point that I make is this, the injury, and of course, you know, it's the, it's the limits of the stress hormone.

I don't see any side of the hormone to go broader.

And I haven't heard a whiff of that.

I don't know.

I don't think they can do anything at this point.

Just got smacked about 10 minutes ago, and I've been doing all the talking so far.

Wasn't murdered.

It had shut by and so forth.

Not yet.

He'll be fine.

I think that's a kind of game that's trying to, you've got people that you're, I mean, on the construction and construction side, it's a main problem.

It's a big problem.

That's right.

That's true.

Yeah, right.

Well, I don't think that they're going to testify.

I would be very surprised if he did.

Why?

Well, getting involved in the construction.

I just don't think, I think, well, I'm just guessing here.

My guess is that he's working himself out.

I hate him in all of this.

Well, sir, he's interested in getting involved in the construction.

He's basically almost a bad man.

No, no, he was an instigator of the whole thing.

He was concerned about his fee.

So he was, he was one of the active promoters of that, as far as I can tell.

It's been on for me, but what do you and the investment say with the construction thing that was involved?

Well, you had defendants who were concerned about their families, and that's understandable.

You had lawyers who were concerned about their fees, and that's less understandable.

In terms of the end result, you had a campaign organization that was concerned about the success of its campaign.

Yes, ma'am.

didn't want these fellows to say anything in public that would disrupt the campaign.

Is that what you want people to want to say about something in public?

Oh, I think so.

I think so.

Yeah.

And then you had... No, but I mean, say something in public that would disrupt the campaign or because it would embarrass people.

Sure.

It would impeach the campaign, in effect.

All right.

But at the same time,

A lot of those same people who had that legitimate motive, they had the same people that had that legitimate motive had an illegitimate motive.

Because they were pretending their own culpability.

And here we're talking about the guru, the guru-nurse.

So you would say that you would say that you have errors that mean, let's say, now let's say a dean or a case in point says something that means

Well, see, Dean's problem is that he was in touch with these committee people who could, to Dean, express a benign motive, and at the same time had a curb motive.

if i were dean i would develop a defense that i was being manipulated by people who had a growth motive for ostensibly a benign motive and uh it's quite a fact that's right that's right

You take a fellow like Eddie Tumway over there, for instance, who has to think about the PR of the campaign.

Making statements.

Whatever.

Like, in the very intentional limits, only the intentional way that touches you and Bob.

You know what I mean?

That somebody came to you.

Yeah.

Good God, I mean, you said go talk to the compact.

If you were talking about keeping the bench, if you knew the defense were guilty, if you didn't know who the hell else was.

That's correct.

And, uh, you just thought that they were sure they were not?

Well, you know, the thing that ran through my mind was Howard Hunt has written 40 books.

Yeah.

And Howard Hunt was worried about the support of his family.

And I could see Howard Hunt writing an inside expose of how he broke into the Democratic National Headquarters at the request of the committee to re-elect the President.

Yeah.

Now,

If I had a choice between getting contributions in support of Howard Hunt's family, and that was pretty easy.

I suppose they would say no then, John.

Well, I didn't care what Howard Hunt said to the prosecutor.

He could have said anything he wanted to the prosecutor in a secret session.

That didn't hurt.

It's all a secret then.

The grand jury was secret.

The grand jury was all operating at that time.

Sure, it didn't come to trial after the election.

I can say truth and candor that Dean never explained to me that there was any kind of a deal to get these guys to lie or to change their stories or to

who refused to testify to the file of the actions or anything like that.

That was just never discussed.

So I don't feel too uncomfortable with this.

The other way is if Clint Easton resigns.

If Clint Easton resigns, that says there's something wrong with the Justice Department.

So you're leaving at this point.

He just disqualified himself.

That's right.

This wouldn't be anything too new.

He may have some other information.

Yeah, or technical reason or something of that kind.

Maybe he has some information.

I have a call in for him and then the operator's left it over here.

The reason that I do

is that he never did pin down for me what it is that he wants me to do.

Now, I attended to him, as I think I had to.

Good.

And he said, well, I'll check it and be in touch with you tomorrow.

So fine.

I left word over there that I'm here.

That's the only reason for my call.

And you might ask if there's anything we ought to do here.

in the light of developments.

But I do feel that there is nothing new in what I have.

The aqua converter is already totaled.

So I think it's largely academic.

Just a little bit.

Yeah.

Titus would have told him last night what Berger said.

And so he will, this morning, have, I think, as much knowledge about this thing as we have.

Maybe one or two.

One or two details.

But Berger said they're hot on the coast.

The one phone call is the only instance that he has to repeat.

Yep.

Right.

Association.

Yep.

Association.

Yep.

Okay.

And that's natural.

If you've had a guy in a case of... And that's natural.

If you've had a guy in a case of...

And that's natural.

You've got a guy in the case that... Well, nothing to me like that.

Yeah.

Well, nothing to me like that.

Yeah.

I don't think there's much to do at this point.

He's building his own defenses.

I assume that he's doing whatever has to be done with Hunt that only he could do.

I assume that he's doing what I assume to be done with him

have to be done.

Well, I don't even know what he could do.

He, I'm sure, has had incircuitous contact with money.

I think, well, I don't even know what he does.

I'm sure he has had incircuitous contact with money.

Some natural proclivities will do anything we can possibly do.

Proclivities will do anything we can possibly do.

I'm trying to...

I'm trying...

Everything they could have hoped to get.

And.

And see.

See.

I don't know.

I really don't.

I don't understand.

I really don't.

I don't understand him at all.

And the group makes him, group makes him.

and all kinds of things.

And there are all kinds of litty stories running around.

Right?

There's really all kinds of weird

And there are all kinds of litty stories, right?

There are all kinds of litty stories, right?

He's coming so often He's coming so often

No, that wasn't a settlement case.

That was not to file an action.

Remember, they were about to file a lawsuit.

How do we know about it?

We'll find out about it.

You can't tell me.

I can't tell you about it.

I forgot the details.

Why didn't we think you should file an action?

Well, we had a runaway and a crest evasion at that point.

And I can't raise an element where.

That's right.

On policy, not on... And I will testify to my dying day that our approach to antitrust cases has all been virtually without variation on policy rather than the merits of an individual case.

Wasn't it?

There was one exception to that, and that was that Granite City seal case where we criticized their analysis, Council of Economic Advisers did, and we went back on them on a specific case rather than just the general policy.

That was on a factual issue.

I think he felt, and I have not talked to him about this, but I think he felt that if he involved himself in this case at all, in Mitchell's behalf,

that eventually it would have tainted the whole proceeding and maybe resounded to Mitchell's disadvantage.

And I suppose that's Mitchell's best chance.

I think Mitchell's best chance, but I'm just thinking that just so that we would be prepared to come down.

Well, that's true.

That's true.

The U.S. attorney now feels that Dean overreached that by providing information out of the grand jury to the committee for the re-election.

I think that may be legitimate.

for him to provide us with information inside for the orderly operation of the government is another matter.

That's two quite different things.

If you peddle information from a grand jury to the outside, or if you peddle it inside to people who are responsible.

Oh, that was, let me think.

He had information on

who was going to be called as witnesses, so that apparently Marty was able to get around and coach witnesses.

In some cases, Marty, I guess, was very heavy-handed about it.

Was there anything wrong with that?

Yeah.

Yeah, well, there was something wrong with...

He was not there at the time.

Well, no, the problem is he asked them to say things that weren't true.

I say coach, I use the word loosely.

Well, I know a fellow over there named Porter, Mark Porter, for one.

Where is he now?

No, he's in business somewhere.

And he'd probably be indicted.

Say he was one of the butlers?

No, no.

He worked with the committee.

But they asked him about higher-ups and about whether there was any sort of agency in the deal.

He worked over there in the Hooters' office, and he apparently passed money to Liddy from Sloan.

and was privy to quite a lot of the information.

Yeah, apparently good.

Well, I don't mean that.

I mean to pay for equipment and to follow along with the QA.

That's right.

Well, because they didn't have the evidence.

It was a cover story, which Marty and others cooked up.

And Porter corroborating the cover story is now indictable for perjury.

The little fish who got caught in the net.

The whole thing is just monumentally tragic.

It is.

Well, that's right.

That's right.

I hit him with an axe.

Dean is concerned.

It concerns me.

I don't think he could have been that active in the pre-, the post-Jepson, the pre-finance.

Magruder, Magruder may be playing a little wildly in some of that stuff.

Well, I've got to get him in, and I hope you see today.

You would not know, I mean, your evaluation of Dean.

I can see Dean's story about those things, or he told me.

It's about an hour and eighty feet.

That's right, Grutter.

That's right, he says.

And he says, look, he shouldn't be talking about sex.

I know, they have a tape with all the topics that are in the camera.

Grutter says he approved the victim's officer.

That's about right.

And that Mitchell was the one he best screwed with.

Well, this could be a little more crude for Dean, according to the thing.

Because Dean shows up very prominently in the whole Grutter plan.

And Dean was in Florida instead of his own kitchen.

No, no.

The three people there.

Mitchell was already down there.

McGruder and LaRue went down for what purpose?

They brought him the final Liddy proposal.

To Liddy?

With the Watergate and the Font Bleu and the, and the government headquarters spelled out.

How did Dean find out?

Dean?

I don't know how he did that.

I assume that at some point in time we were totally done.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

And in a lot of these things, of course, he had a lot of different versions of everything, but I think it's reasonable to assume that he passed that along to me.

Sure.

Mitchell phoned me this morning to say that Daniel Shore had been on the shuttle when he rode back to .

Yeah.

And, well, they saw him here, and then they sent somebody out to the airport.

Yeah, sure.

He said, sure, he didn't know anything about the Watergate.

He didn't know anybody cared about the Watergate.

He'd just been down to the White House, but he hadn't seen the President.

That was all he said.

He just went forward to testify and report it over to the committee.

So far.

So he called me this morning just to say that he wanted us to know what he had actually said in case there was any press report in the current government.

Well, Senator, she simply said, yes, he was here to see you.

Really?

Don't have any comment on that.

You don't comment on that subject, sir?

But I think that's the only way to handle it.

We always say, I don't have, I don't know, sir.

I have information on the subject.

Don't know.

Make sure you have information.

Right.

I'm glad you...

I thought you were going to go on with the biblical conclusion to the guy who said it's a message, but there will be hate the one and love the other, but the center of the church is very well.

We're kind of a head-tied right now in this whole thing.

In terms of the media, as I see it.

They're all a little afraid to get too far out on a limb on this, because they think something's going on within the committee and the associations and so on.

And there's no new news breaking.

And so they're kind of waiting.

They'll get full time to get the graduate.

Well, sure.

But now is a good time for us to fill that vacuum.

Oh, yes.

A little bit.

Yeah, sure.

A lot of things are going on.

Yeah.

I read the...

I had a chance to read that.

I saw the headline.

It's not corroborated, of course, but basically, there's a survey that I'm reading on the show with the President's support.

And first, the support with regard to the war was not going to be in this amount of money.

But indeed,

You can't go to the ball.

You can't go to this.

You better run.

It's just a pervasive issue.

It's just a notorious crisis.

I go in and out of the Nantucket.

Watergate.

Tell us about Watergate.

It's a hell of a Washington story.

And James Johnson, of course, is notorious for finding what he's looking for.

Of course, remember, he entered the election in that great national survey.

Yeah.

Yes, and also that the first job that we did, we had to have the same piece that these people were not holding back.

But we go through these cycles too, John.

I mean, this is a little more of a, shall we say, a bigger cycle than most of the other videos.

I mean, there's a combination of the water gate and the user's one issue thing.

Yep.

Now it's a combination of the water gate plus the, these guys say that the, it's the, it's the water gate, I don't know, they say the water gate's most pervasive, and I see prices, and I agree with that, and I see other issues, and I'm sure they've heard that, because that cuts back on social workers.

Well, I actually don't find that, I, well, you know, I think the agreed piece, which is that they said, agreed themselves.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you are, if that were true.

You know, you can't, you can't, you know, as I said, I don't do any comfortable, I don't get any, you know, discouraged by the meter, you just don't believe me.

I mean, you can't move it.

You give it a little, yeah, like 60, 33, or 60, I don't know.

Well, yeah.

I mean, if you've got a third plus one in the Congress on two crucial votes, you know damn well the country isn't up in arms about the social programs.

That's right.

You've been poking your finger in their eye, and they still voted with you.

I mean, that's the point.

It isn't that this is a result of any good or bad.

That's a good question.

But this is a James Johnson and Jules Witkover.

Jules Witkover, of course.

This is his pattern, too.

All of them.

Some of them.

I hold the distinction of getting the only fair piece out of Jules Witkover in the history of the administration.

I gave him an interview, and then I got text approval.

And read his stuff, changed it.

No question.

That's why I wouldn't see him without that condition.

Speaking of press, Nick Timish has been fired by Newsday.

And he's looking for a job and he's pretty unhappy.

He's got a lot of kids.

I'd love to.

I don't know if he'd take it, but... Oh, I think he's fine.

I have any idea.

It's one of the things I'll talk to Ron about.

I don't know.

Let me talk to Ron and see what he wants.

He's a nice guy, and he's fair, and he's for us.

You know, in a pinch.

He's basically an ethnic.

It occurred to me that maybe we could put him with Bolzano, and he could help that out.

I don't agree.

He's more disciplined.

I guess you can't put him in Ron, huh?

He's just stronger than him.

Nick couldn't do that.

He's too erratic.

He could work very nicely with him.

Oh, yes.

I'll talk about it.

See whether we can get something.

The other people started hating him, right?

Mm-hmm.

Or so far.

Be sure he knows that if you're brought to my attention, that we're winning.

All right.

If he's not, then we've got to do it next time.

I also saw him running for it last night.

Oh, God.

And Bruce woke up his ass now.

He's very happy because I let him write you that long letter.

And I told him you'd read it and that you were stock suited in statistical display and so on and so on.

I didn't get the other papers, the economic papers that had come out.

Yes, and I thought I had sent them to you.

I'll bring them over to the EOB.

I've got my set.

I'll bring him over to the EOB after you're clear of client groups.

Can I read it?

Yeah, you should.

You should read it.

So that I can get it?

I'm sorry?

I don't think you want to read it.

I know it's urgent.

I'm on the schedule.

Let's show this.

You shouldn't have it meeting right away.

You should.

All right.

There.

We're ready.

Right.

And I think where you're going to come out is to just keep going the way you are.

Really?

Yep.

That's my suspicion, but... Burns is back to phase two.

No, I'm not.

I'll tell you, I think that the weight of the evidence in this thing is that we have a PR problem.

We have a huge PR problem.

And that back to phase two is a PR device, not an economic device.

that you're probably doing the right thing from an economic standpoint.

And that we've got to do something from a PR standpoint better than we're doing.

Well, I don't think it's to go back to setting up a wage board and a price board and all that stuff.

I think it's to do a much better job of PR.

On phase three.

And that means devising a spokesman.

And I'm thinking of...

Bringing in a guy like McCloskey at the State Department is the foreign affairs spokesman, even though Kissinger operates foreign affairs from here.

Somebody in the Treasury Department who is the economic spokesman, like McCloskey, is an analogy like that.

And a guy who's out there banging the press every day about the economy.

And he would be magnificent if you could get him just to talk and not to do anything else, you know, not to get into the policy itself.

The trouble is he's such a strong personality and so erratic.

But there must be a guy who is able, who can win the confidence of the financial press.

The reason I put him in Treasury is so he can work on the Shanahans and the Dales and the

role and this is the man that ill and so i i don't know maybe i oversimplify this but that seems to be what everybody's saying

I thought you were going to go on with the biblical conclusion to the guy who served two masses.

With the biblical conclusion to the guy who served two masses.

There'll be, there'll be, there'll be, we'll hate the one above the other, we'll hate the one above the other, but the center of the deep state of the world, the center of the deep state of the world,

We're kind of a... We're kind of a heptide.

right now in this whole time right now in this whole thing in terms of the media as i see they're all a little i see they're all a little afraid to get too far out afraid

And there's no new news breaking.

Let's go.

They're kind of, uh, waiting.

Let's go.

They'll get it.

Full-time.

They'll get it.

Full-time.

Maybe at the graduate.

Well, maybe at the graduate.

Well, sure, sure.

But, but, but, but, now, now is a good time for us to fill that vacuum.

Oh, yes.

For us to fill that vacuum.

Oh, yes.

I don't know.

I read the, I'm just, I read the, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just,

It's not corroborating your statement.

They said, they surveyed, they surveyed the entry and all the shows, the entry and all the shows, the President's, the President's support, and first, and first, their support with regard to the law, their support with regard to the law is not going to be

Without the economy as a problem, generally everybody would be an equity in the world.

But right now, the economy is a problem.

That's just not true.

The first Gallup vote tomorrow, I'm sure, is going to show that the interest rate is going to go up a whole lot better tomorrow.

So you can't go to the ballgame.

You can't.

Without an equity in the game, you can't go to the game.

That's just not true.

The first Gallup vote tomorrow, I'm sure,

And James Johnson, of course, is notorious.

And James Johnson, of course, is notorious for finding what he's looking for.

Finding what he's looking for.

Of course, remember, of course, remember, the election in that, the election in that great national, great national, certainly, certainly, certainly, yeah, yes, also, yeah, yes, he first found, uh,

We ended up using the same piece that we deal with the first time.

No, no, no.

We ended up using the same piece that we deal with the first time.

Well, it is our, uh, shall we say, a bigger cycle than most because of the, uh, we have, we, uh, we're in these cycles too, John.

I mean, this is, I mean, the combination part.

Here's the one issue that, uh, now it's a combination of the water gate plus our, our, uh, shall we say, a bigger cycle than most because of the, uh,

These guys say that it's the water game.

No, they say the water game.

Yeah.

I think you are, I think you are, if that were true, you know, if that were true, you know, you can't.

You can't.

Well, if you've got a third plus one in the Congress, I'm two.

Crucial vote.

Well, if you've got a third plus one in the Congress on two, crucial votes, you know damn well what country is in those scenarios.

You know damn well what country is in those scenarios.

Social programs.

They've been buckled their finger in their eye.

And they still kill them.

That's the point.

This is the result of anything.

I hold the distinction of getting the only fair piece out of Jules Whitcover in history.

I hold the distinction of getting the only fair piece out of Jules Whitgover in the history of the administration.

I gave him an interview, and then I got text approval.

Interview, and then I got text approval.

Read his stuff, and changed it.

No question.

That's why I wouldn't see him without that condition.

No question.

That's why I would see without that condition.

Speaking of speaking of press.

And he's looking for a job, and he's pretty unhappy.

He's got an old income.

I saw him last night.

He's got an old income.

I saw him last night.

I'd love to...

I don't know if he'd take it, but...

I'd love to...

I don't know if he'd take it, but...

I have any idea, it's one of the things I'll talk to Ron about.

Oh, let me talk to Rob and see what he's all about.

He's a nice guy.

Let me talk to Eric and talk to Rob and see what he's all about.

He's for us.

He's a nice guy.

And he's fair.

And he's banged us.

I think basically he's for us.

He's for us.

He's banged us.

I think basically he's for us.

He's basically in that thing.

It occurred to me that maybe we could put him with...

It occurred to me that maybe we could put him with Bolzano.

Bolzano.

And he could... And he could...

He could help that...

He could help that out.

I don't agree.

He's smart.

He can't put them wrong.

He's a stronger backup man.

Nick just did that.

Just did that.

He's too erratic.

We're, we're, we're.

I don't know.

Um, I also saw a running parade last night.

Oh, God.

I also saw room for it last night.

Oh, God.

And, uh, and, uh, Bruce, uh, Bruce smoked up, uh, Bruce smoked up his ass, his ass, no, no.

He's, he's very, very happy because I let him write to you, because I let him write to you that long letter, letter, and it was, and it was totally new to Reddit, and it's yours, and it's totally new to Reddit, and it's yours, and it's yours, and it's yours, and it's yours, and it's yours, and it's yours, and it's yours,

I didn't get any other papers.

The anonymous papers didn't come out.

I didn't get any other documents.

Are there other documents?

Yes, and I thought I had sent them to you.

I've got my set.

I've got your book.

Shouldn't have a meeting right away.

I think where you're going to come out is to just keep going the way you are.

That's my suspicion.

But after your clear claim, yeah, you should read it.

I think where you're going to come out is to just keep going the way you are.

Agreed.

Yep.

That's my suspicion.

Bye.

Burns is back to phase two.

No, I'm not.

I'll tell you.

No, I'm not.

I'll tell you.

I think that the weight of the evidence in this thing is that we have a PR problem.

We have a huge PR problem.

And that McAfee is a PR device, not an economic device.

That you're probably doing the right thing from an economic standpoint.

And that we've got to do something from a PR standpoint better than we're doing from a PR standpoint.

Well, better than we're doing.

Well, I don't think it's to go back to setting up a wage board and a price board and all that stuff.

I think it's to do a much better job of PR.

On phase three.

And that means, and that means, devising a spokesman.

devising a spokesman.

And, and I'm thinking of bringing in a guy like, I'm thinking of bringing in a guy like McCloskey at the, McCloskey at the State Department is the Foreign Affairs spokesman.

Even the State Department is, Kissinger is the Foreign Affairs spokesman.

Even though Kissinger operates Foreign Affairs from here, operates Foreign Affairs from here, somebody in the Treasury Department

who is the, somebody in the Treasury Department, who is the foreign affair, who is the economic, who is the economic spokesman, like McCloskey, is an economic spokesman, like McCloskey, is an analogy like that, and a guy who's out there, analogy like that, and a guy who's out there banging the press every day, about banging the press every day, about the economy, and how,

and he would be magnificent if you could get him just the part he would be magnificent if you could get him just the part and not to do anything else you know and not to do anything else you know not to get into the policy itself not to get into the policy itself the trouble is he's such a strong personality the trouble is he's such a strong personality and so erratic yeah

So we ran, yeah.

But there must be a guy, there must be a guy who is able, who is able, who can win the confidence of the financial press, who can win the confidence of the financial press.

The reason I put him in Treasury is so he could work on the Shanahan's, the reason I put him in Treasury is so he could work on the Shanahan's and the Dale's and the Dale's

Rollins and then Vallejo.

And Vallejo.

And so, I don't know, maybe I oversimplify this, but that seems to be...

I don't know, maybe I oversimplify this, but that seems to be what everybody's saying.

Everybody's saying... Everybody's saying...

Thank you.