Conversation 897-004

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but I should have in hand something or otherwise.

I'll say, what the hell did you, after Mr. Dean told you all this, what'd you do?

You see what I mean?

I talked to Peterson about the thing, and I said, now, what do you want to do about this integration with Dean and so forth?

And he said, well, I don't want to announce anything now, you know what I mean?

But what is your feeling on that?

Well, we talked to Dean, and we talked to Dean,

this one because you're going to be uh you're going to be going and i'll have to handle them also but the point is what's your advice would be you see the point is we don't have i guess i just got i just typed up a couple just to have here i will put out you know in the event that certain things occurred but you see what the uh

It would be good if you had a new one.

And I would think, to be very honest with you, have a little others too.

I would.

As a matter of fact, they both suggested it for themselves.

So I've got that.

I'm sorry, Steve, I did the wrong balance.

So I've already done that with that.

I've got that.

And I want to get your advice on that too.

that would be one thing, and the other, of course, would be just a straight destination.

First, what I would suggest is that you sign both.

That's what I had in mind, and then we'll talk about after.

I think it's a good idea.

I frankly do.

But I think if you do it for one

I think you have problems with others too, Mr. President.

We already have problems with others.

All right.

That's what I'm trying to advise you.

But on theirs, on theirs, on theirs, both the pending the, it is all pending, their occurrence and so forth.

This isn't yours.

Nothing's going to be said.

But I've got to have it in hand.

And my reason, as I told them, as a matter of fact, I've heard.

that as Pearsons are reporting every day.

And I said, Rob Pearson,

All I can do is just draft up for you an alternative letter, put it in both options, and you can just put them in the file.

Short and sweet.

I have dictated something to myself on my own, which is to see what it is that you don't have.

If you could give me a better form, fine.

But you can do it either way.

jeopardize your position at all.

You've got a right to, just as everybody else has.

You've carried a hell of a load here.

But I just feel, since what you said last night, that we've got to end with the Hallmark lands.

I have neither that nor that.

Which, however, I will not use until I

There's no hard work around here.

You will have something within a couple hours.

Well, I can just put it on.

I can be back.

Yeah.

You can draft what you want me to.

And if you don't like what I draft, tell me, and I'll change it anyway.

Sure, sure.

I don't have to make the decision.

Yes, sir.

and so forth and uh but but you would agree you should but nothing should be put out now i would agree i was thinking about that we got the problem today the thing may break you know and so forth and uh i'm uh i you know i think that's what i wanted to run over if you agree with this too

Well, we got, the only problem is what the hell can I say publicly?

Here's what we've done.

I called in, I got in a client piece.

I've been working on it all week, actually.

I mean, I got, as soon as I got the recruiter then, I got in a client piece.

And then at four o'clock, we got in.

So, I met Peterson.

The client piece was true.

fall through, get to the bottom of this thing, and I'm going to let the chips fall where they may.

We covered that all the way down the line.

Now, I have to follow him to a certain extent on the prosecution side.

On the other hand, on the PR side, I sure as hell am not going to let the Justice Department step out there and say, look, we dragged White House in here.

I've got to step out and do it, John.

Don't you agree?

That's right.

Again, I don't want to walk out and say, look, John Dean's resignation has been accepted.

Jesus Christ, that isn't fair.

Nor did the RSA or the Republicans have.

What?

You know, I know what you're saying.

Because, you see, they haven't been charged with that.

As soon as they're charged with property, but in your case, you haven't been charged with it yet.

No, I have not.

That's my problem, see, with it.

All I want is to have, the only reason I'm doing this is to, because of you, what you said about something, you said about the ban, and that's why I'm getting the ban.

Well, there's a chance, well, there's a chance that today, when LaRue goes down,

The Haldeman and Ehrlichman's names are going to be right down there before the grand jury.

The thing won't be in, but the point is, you don't just throw somebody else because of a name like that.

You could also, in words, and I would like you to prepare a letter that you would have for Ehrlichman and Haldeman.

Yes, sir.

And I'll get that in the form by the time we're out there, something that's appropriate.

Would you prepare that for me?

Yes, sir.

Because they told me last night, or early, just as you did,

that they stand ready to cover the record.

They said, look, we'll leave in a minute.

We'll leave today.

You can do whatever you want.

And I said, what else?

Well, you're going to have to wait because of the evidence.

You know what I mean?

True.

Which I think you agree with.

All right.

That's what I think.

The question is timing.

Yeah.

Let's get Dane's advice as to how we handle this from now on.

Well, I would say you should have the letters in hand.

And then based on what you learned from Peterson, you can make a judgment at the timing.

I think you're still...

five steps ahead of what will ever emerge publicly.

I don't think that... Well, I don't know.

Some of the things Magruder said, he said that the prosecutors had asked him a number of questions about Bruckman and Baldwin.

So there's no doubt that's going to be out on the street fast also.

I'm fortunate that I even, I'm hoping that the ultimate resolution to this thing is no one has any problem.

And that's legal.

Legally.

That's right.

Which I hope is your issue.

Yes, sir, I do.

But you did tell me that in the aftermath, there were serious problems.

That's right.

And I said, well, let's see what they are.

Right.

And now you're beginning to see what they are, and they're potential technical obstruction of justice problems.

That's right.

Not necessarily.

Well, I talked to Peterson, and I said, hey, exactly the same thing.

He says the obstruction was moral.

My lawyer tells me that, you know, legally, you're in damn good shape.

Is that right?

That's right.

Because you're not... That's right.

You were simply helping defendants get their fees.

Well, even... What does he say?

In that position, I'm merely a conduit.

Very technical.

I'm a conduit to other people.

That's the problem.

What was the situation, John?

And I must say, people referred it the way I was listening, was when you mentioned to me something about, I mean, about Han having a problem.

No, no.

O'Brien, who is one of the lawyers that was representing the re-election committee, was asked by Hunt to meet with him.

He came to me after the meeting and said that Hunt asked the following message he passed to you.

And I said, why me?

He said, I asked Hunt the same thing you did to ask the meeting.

I never heard anything like this.

You never asked him, you know, for it?

No.

Let me tell you, what did you report to me on?

and he said, well, for God's sake, let's see where this thing comes out.

He said it cost a million dollars.

that I need $72,000 for my personal expenses, $50,000 for my legal fees.

If I don't get it, I'm going to have some things to say about the seedy things I did at the White House for John Ehrlichman.

I took that to Ehrlichman.

Ehrlichman said, have you talked to Mitchell about it?

I said, no, I have not.

He said, well, will you talk to Mitchell?

I said, yes, I will.

I talked to Mitchell.

I just passed it along to him.

And then there was a meeting down here a few days later in Bob's office.

with Bob and Ehrlichman and Mitchell and myself.

And Ehrlichman said at that time, he said, well, is that a problem with Unstraightened Out?

He said it to me at last, the man who may know Mitchell, and Mitchell said, I think that problem is solved.

That's all?

That's all he said.

All right.

That's good.

In other words, that was done for Mitchell.

That's right.

But you didn't know, I told him, and I heard it.

Right.

And I suppose I did.

I don't think so.

Why not?

I'm trying to be talking to myself, Sam.

I must say, I didn't really give it a thought at the time.

No one gave it a thought.

You didn't.

You didn't tell me it was about our example.

You simply said, one needs this money.

And you were using this example of the problems ahead.

I have tried all along to make sure that anything I pass to you

myself, didn't cause you any personal problems?

Let me ask you this.

Let us suppose, as this thing breaks, I ask you, John, John, you were the president's counsel.

Did you report things to the president?

I didn't report anything.

I would refuse to answer any questions.

No, no, no.

I think you should.

Let me ask you this.

Unless you wait.

Let me say, on this point, I would not wait.

You would say, I reported to the president that the president called me in.

I mean, the president, by the way, speaks the

call me in and ask me that before, that when the event first occurred, you conducted the investigation and passed to the president the message, no White House personnel according to your investigation was involved.

You did do that, didn't you?

I did that through Herlock and Hall.

Actually, you did do that.

I'm on the road now.

I did that through Herlock and Hall.

Because you remember, you told me after the Friday morning of McCord's letter, you said you predicted this.

It was going to happen because I had, oh, in about a week or two weeks... Why did I predict you then?

What triggered me to get you in?

Well, we just started talking about this thing.

But I told you that it was you and Morty.

Well, on a Wednesday morning...

great things were popping, but on the Wednesday morning before, I had three conversations with my recollection.

Well, sorry, I think we have more than that, but of course, we'd have a record of that through.

Yeah.

I didn't know.

That's what you told me last night.

See, I don't want you, John, to be in a position, and frankly, I don't want the president to be in a position where one of his trusted people had information that he had kept from him.

So I just want you to know.

Fine.

You did not know.

How did you find out then, in the last?

But you can handle that.

But I did ask you, and I think you should say, the president has authorized me to say this.

I don't reveal that conversation.

I told him this, that nobody in the White House was involved.

And then in addition to that, that I, to the best of my ability, kept, I guess, or what do you think you ought to handle with the presidential alliance?

I can't say that you didn't tell me that nobody in the White House was involved, and I can say that you then came in at your request and said, I think the President needs to hear more about this case.

That's right.

And it was that time that I started my investigation.

That's right.

Correct?

That was the Wednesday before they were sentenced.

Now I can get that data.

I don't have it off the top.

Would you be disappointed in your chronology with that Wednesday?

and I've got to damn it, I don't want to find out the score, and I think you said it emotionally, and maybe I'll kill it, not kill it, but okay.

One other thing, on the privilege thing, I think, not in, so that you can be sure that you know, not in this privilege that involves wrongdoing on your part, or wrongdoing,

testify, if you do, to say that the president has told you that.

Would you do that?

Yes, sir.

Would you agree to that?

Fine.

However, let me say that with regard to what you call the electronic stuff that occurred in what I have now found is

I had, I think, in the case of the crash of what the FBI did, there were both, I find.

I checked it back.

There were some done, some done through private sources.

Most of it was done through the Bureau.

We just stopped it altogether.

But in my view, I consider that a privilege.

Have you informed your lawyers about that?

No.

I think you should not.

Not because of cutting, except that I do think it's a privilege.

But it's something up to you.

No, I think it's a privilege also.

Support your home.

And it was necessary to you.

Now, your guess is when will you be called, perhaps Tuesday, Wednesday, or?

I would think sometimes.

You don't think of things like the breaking of the law?

No, I don't.

I don't want to say where it's going.

You know what I mean?

That's right.

Don't you agree?

Well, when history is written and you put pieces back together, you'll see why it happened.

It's because I triggered.

And I still continue to feel out... You put Magruder's feet to the fire.

Yes, I did.

Where did you see Magruder?

I didn't.

In fact, I refused to see him.

That was one of the problems.

Oh.

And that's why...

I talked to him.

I met with him in one of these outer offices out here at a meeting.

Why did you let Magruder talk?

I would like to say... Because, well...

I thought I was hoping that he would see me.

It was, well, he was told, he was told once that, you know, he'd never be back at all.

But you made a statement about the, just like we know you're going, drawing the wagons up around the White House.

Uh, but basically, basically, you thought the primary boss, and this we're talking about pre-Bridge, was all of the committee, right?

Right.

Where it is.

That's right.

But on the river, come again, once again, the other, uh, the, uh,

The situation there is that he and Mitchell were continuing to talk, continuing to talk about proceeding along the same course they'd been proceeding to mocking their story, but my story did not fit with their story.

And I just told them I refuse to change, to alter my testimony, to repeat it, because as I knew it, this had to do with the number of meetings in the department.

I heard this plan.

You told me this.

Everybody did.

I would not go down there and lie if you said your hand was shaking.

Remember, you told me that.

Thank God.

That's the thing.

I told everybody around here, I said, God damn it, tell them the truth.

Because all they do, John, is compound it.

And some of it is, would be free then.

If he hadn't lied about his ex-girlfriend, he could have just said, he didn't even have to, he could have just said, look, I knew Jambres, and yes, as a young man, I was involved sometimes with that group, but I broke it off many years ago, and Jambres would have dropped me.

If somebody lied, he goes to jail for the lie rather than the crime.

So believe me, don't ever lie to these people.

The truth always emerges.

We know that.

It always does.

But also there's the question of right and wrong.

That's right.

What is right and what is wrong.

That's right.

get it out and kind of share it.

On Liddy, I wanted to share that you recall on a conversation I had, you asked me to do something.

I left it to Peterson now.

He said he'd handle it.

That's a proper question.

See, when Liddy says he can't talk on his ears from higher authority, I am not his higher authority now.

It's mentioned.

Well, he's looking for the ultimate

I think he's thinking about the President.

He has the impression that you and Mitchell probably talk on the telephone daily about this.

You know, we've never talked about this.

I understand.

I've never talked to Mitchell about this.

Oh, except about when, quite a bit ago, the executive privilege thing.

Right.

He came in and said everybody should testify in the Jesse session.

Except you.

Which I disagree with.

I think it's not about executive privilege.

I think, I think Mr. President, the earlier...

I'm assuming that when Peterson finishes... You don't think we should hold him on executive order anyway, do you, John?

To hold him on executive order?

That would be your question.

I think that if there are indictments down there in that courtroom, none of those individuals should go up and testify.

I think the Watergate is just going to be totally parked out of the urban area.

Yeah, that's the Watergate.

The other stuff is not that important.

Cigarette.

Cigarette, yeah.

That stuff is not that important.

They'll probably have a lot of fun with it, but it's not very meaningful.

But I want to lay one thing out.

I think there is a mythical belief, and I've talked to Bob or John about this, that they don't have a problem, Mr. Craig.

And I'm really not sure you're convinced they do, but I'm telling you they do.

The problem?

Yeah, the question.

to get splashed.

And he said, when they get splashed, you've got a problem, Mr. President.

Now, then he goes on to say, as far as the legal vulnerability is concerned, and he covers all three of them here, he said, it's a very difficult case to prove.

Do you agree with that?

That's right.

See, that's the point.

When I go to work, I mean, I'm speaking on personal terms.

It's a technical case, and then it's a tough case.

He's a judge.

What's he mean by that?

I apparently... My lawyer said, now, I've won cases on this with top of back and you've done it.

I'm sure you've done it.

It would not be a good idea.

It would be a very good idea if they had counsel.

I told them the other last night to get lawyers.

So I wouldn't step ahead of you there.

Now, is there anything else you think I

That's right.

I could have told you to go to Camp David and concoct the story.

That's right.

And you never heard that said elsewhere.

In fact, I think I've known you better than I do what you did.

But on the other hand, it was your job to tell me what was done.

And you have.

Basically, what you've done... No, you've told me the truth, though.

You've told me the truth.

It was your job to work for the White House.

The president of the White House said it.

And they were not involved in the pre-election.

But then...

You thought about it in the post, and you thought about it, and that's why we decided that you said... Look, one thing I want to be sure of in here when you testify, I want you to be in a position, and I want the president to be in a position, and his counsel did not level with him.

There's no point that I have not leveled with you.

Why did you tell the president?

Did you know about this?

Why did you tell the president?

That's a PR situation, Mr. President.

The U.S. Marines are not going to ask me questions.

I said what I said to the president what I did.

Well, I frankly think, I hope you can help in PR there by saying, I'd like for you to say, and you're free to talk,

You're saying, I told the president about this.

I told the president first there was no involvement in the White House.

Afterwards, I told the president that I, and the president said, look, I want to get to the bottom of this thing, period.

See what I mean?

Not just the White House.

You continued your investigation and so forth.

The president went after, investigated his own way, which I had done, really.

I put a little pressure on him to do these claims.

And, uh,

Also, I have a freshman justice firm.

No, I think you're in front right now, and you can rest assured everything I do will keep you as far as... No, I want to say, don't lie about me.

No, I think I've done the right thing.

But I want you to, if you feel I've done the right thing, I want any countries to try to know, because we're talking about the presidency.

This thing has changed so dramatically, the whole situation, since I gave you the... What was that match there?

That chair was there and gave you what I thought were the circumstances, the potential problems, and the like.

You have done nothing but try to get to the bottom of this thing.

I think so.

Well, I said write a report, but my purpose was to write a report.

As I said, I want the cigarette amendment, put the cigarette stuff in, put everything else in.

What is the White House, what was the White House's problem, you know?

One last thing, Colson, you don't think that they're going to get him into this, huh?

I think he has some technical problems, folks, also.

I don't know if he has any, to the best of my knowledge, he has no advanced knowledge of the thing, right?

I suppose the key there is hunting.

He was so close to hunting.

I just want to know that he's my own benefit.

I told you last time, I don't want him.

I have no information that he was at all.

That's basically other technical problems.

All the instruction is technical stuff.

It mounts up.

Well, you take, for example, the clinical stuff.

That's solely mental.

Colson was talking with the bedman where he said, I'll do everything I can because it's a mess of friends.

And that was with Erlichman?

I don't know.

Erlichman and who?

Erlichman and Colson and I sat up there and Colson presented his story to Erlichman.

I know.

Regarding it and then John gave Chuck very clear instructions on going back and telling him, you know, give him the inference he's got time to say, but don't give him any commitment.

No commitment.

Right.

That's all right.

First, it's an individual.

There's no commitment.

I've got a right to sit here and take a call like, or a Cuban whose wife is sick or something.

That's what clemency is about, correct?

But John specifically said no commitment.

And Colson then went on to...

I don't know how Colson delivered it.

I'm not sure he can.

Yes, I don't know why.

No, that was Chuck again.

I think that... And they'd all be out of interest.

No, I think he said something to the effect that Christmas is the time that clemency generally occurs.

Oh, yeah.

Well, that is...

I don't think that... No.

See, he says one thing.

He's a friend of Hansen.

I'm just trying to put the best face on it.

It's the wrong kind of list.

I don't know.

Well, one of the things I think you have to be very careful with is what Peter's going

prosecutors who have no, they'll be making no PR, but they'll give you the raw facts as they relate to the law.

And it's later, you've got to decide, you know, what public face will be put on those, because they'll, if they're going to come out in court.

Do you have help on that, John?

Yes, sir.

Wherever I may be, I'll be available to help on that.

Well, I hope you're right.

I think you testified.

Okay.

You want me to say anything to him about it?

No, I think my lawyers and the U.S. Attorney's Office ought to continue to work.

See, I am having him referred to me daily now.

Right.

Which I think I should do.

And so all that I'll say is I'm going to tell him that we had a talk today and I went over again various materials.

What would be the best thing in the world is if they decide that they've got nothing but technical cases against people in the White House and they chuck them all out.

That's not impossible.

Should I?

No, sir.

It'd be a tough case for them to prove, Sean.

Well, they may decide not to do it, and then none of these things are even released.

It could very well happen.

Well, that's what I want.

You know, I understand.

The reason I have to have that is in case there's a break tonight, I don't want to have to call John Dean in and say, look, John, you know, I have it.

It looks like I was, what the crack am I doing?

I've got to know, because I do have some knowledge.

There are many people who are knowing.

All that I am saying is this, you know.

I have heard things from the U.S. Attorney and from John Dean and from my own people that indicate there could be a technical violation, that there could be, under the circumstances, I feel that it's my duty to have a resignation in hand.

Of course, the President always has a resignation.

Well, that's right.

The thing is the frame of the letter is important.

All right.

I mean, it's a form for you, and you work it out, and work it out so that it would be one that could apply to you, and then work out the answer to Earth and all of anybody else.

It's just a form that I can give anybody that's strong.

No, he's not going to do that.

He's a non-USI.

Well, that doesn't come to me, does it?

Well, the whole effective branch is... No, no, I mean... No, what you're saying is that it appeals.

That's right, yes.

I don't get his recognition.

I'll tell him.

I don't think he ought to tell him.

No, no, no.

I'll tell him.

more than we could do on the presentation of this thing.

Sit up in your office and think of it.

I mean, that's how I handled it.

Well, I wouldn't think the president is in front, you know.

I want to give you some notes on that, but I think it'll help.

Would you do that?

For the record, here's what I've done.

Here's what I've done.

And what do you think the president wanted to do with that?

And then, like, we have to use these things.

I pray to God we don't, because you guys don't deserve it.

We don't deserve it.

Well, the important thing is that it did not damage you.

Well, it isn't me personally.

Well, it's the office and the vending office as well.

All right.

We'll be back.

All right, sir.

I'm just, just, just, I mean, I couldn't be more objective.