Conversation 906-023

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You give them the benefit of the doubt.

You haven't cut the gory enough.

You haven't had the hesitation.

And I said, now, I will determine at the conclusion, not just at the Grange,

I don't see that we're in disagreement there.

The problem is one of timing, as I see it.

I think

My humble judgment that the question of timing is working first to your detriment with respect to your image before the press and the public.

So you mean now will be a good time to do that?

And secondly, I think it's working to the detriment of the investigation because it's giving all of these people an attitude of hope that I think that is unwarranted.

I think that if you make the middle court... We'll be able to leave that all of it early and then see what that does to people.

I'm just thinking about how loud they're going to be.

Let me put it this way.

I'm not on any medication at the end of the moment.

For obvious reasons.

I've been all of it earlier than I've had my goddamn frank discussions.

I know they're telling me the truth.

The reason I can't believe them is because I don't know what he's up to.

See?

But...

And this leader of absence talks to them and says, please let us keep it within ourselves.

We can't get this out and kill it.

Kill the whole thing.

And I particularly can't get it out to Dean.

I don't like to put the three of them in the same bag.

Why do you not like to put them in the same bag?

Do you not like to put them in the same bag because old men and early men are loyal to the last minute?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

I have a bigger relationship at this point.

I can't get Dean in and say, what kind of thought?

You take a leave of absence, and if you come through this window, I'll take you back, something like that.

Well, in all candor, I think the leave of absence is just a preliminary step to ultimate departure.

I don't see how either way any of these would come back.

But it certainly...

at least in terms of bias and prejudice, it indicates to the public at large that you haven't completely abandoned them.

You haven't completely and ultimately decided their fate.

That's right.

So you're putting them on the... On the other hand, I'm separating myself from it and saying, not like all you primarily say is you're guilty of your provenance.

That's a belief of innocence, you see.

Whereas the other way, I'm saying, rather than making it, you're guilty.

That's the difference, isn't it?

See, a leave of absence, in effect, is saying, look, Thomas, I'm giving you a leave of absence.

So I'm holding, basically, not that you're guilty, but it's more than that.

I'm not holding you guilty.

I'm not branding you guilty.

But I'm saying you've got to prove that you are innocent before you can come back.

No.

You're saying that you have to prove you're worthy to work in the office of the president.

Oh, I understand.

I understand.

But I think that's a much more realistic way of saying it.

No, that's what I told him.

No, you know what I mean.

My deal with innocence, I mean worthiness.

You've got to prove you're worthy.

But you see, that's what I think has to get out to the public.

Mr. President, my wife is not a politically sophisticated woman.

She knows I'm upset about this.

I'm working hard.

She sees it.

This morning at breakfast, I don't want you to hold this against her if you ever meet her because she's a charming lady.

She said, doesn't all of this upset you?

I said, of course it does.

Does you think the president knows?

And I looked at her and I said, if I thought the president knew, I would have to resign.

But, you know, now there's in my own family, Mr. President, whatever competencies she has in you, her competencies in me ought to be unquestioned.

But when that type of question comes through in my home, you've got a problem.

Mr. President, I pray for you.

I pray for you.

I wouldn't try to distinguish between the three of them.

I understand, I understand.

Well, I won't try to distinguish, but then maybe they'll be handled differently due to the fact that I'm not communicating with thee.

Mr. President, I understand.

It's always easier to advise, and this will still be fun.

I'll put something in my way, and it'll be done.

I'm working on it.

I understand.

I don't want you to...

I'm not even going to tell you how it's going to be done.

I'd rather not know.

Because it's best that we not know.

It's the work that we're going to do.

And Mr. Sutter, well...

Well, what are you going to do?

What will happen now?

The FBI will now interview Dean on that report in California.

Yes, sir.

They will interview Ehrlichman.

And they will attempt to identify the psychiatrist.

They will interview the psychiatrist's name as elsewhere in the psychiatrist.

to determine whether or not they were burglarized or know they were burglarized.

They will attempt to determine if there's any police report of a burglary.

We will check with the Defense Department since they've been involved with this thing.

We will recheck the FBI.

We've already checked them once.

No, nothing?

We've checked our own people.

The FBI didn't do it.

I understand, but we're talking about the evidence of information that may have stemmed from that source.

Yeah, whether it got to the crowd.

Whether any of that got into the file in any way.

And when we do that, as we do that, we have to file reports with the court, and we will.

And we'll see what develops.

All right, thank you.

You've earned your night today.

I think that's one of those things.

I heard this man's story about this person.

Oh, of course, those things, right?

The idea is that they're coming in saying, Dean has reported that the president, they're going to cut them.

They can't get away with this now.

And we're not going to let them go.

I won't let them go.

All right, thank you.

Thank you, sir.

We were guilty, yes?

Otherwise, I'm pretty certain we were not.

I'm pretty certain we were not.

Well, like all things, some substance, some falsity.

Last Monday, Charlie Schaffer was in the office in a continuation of negotiations.

Charlie Schaffer is the lawyer.

Charlie is a very great, able, bombastic fellow, and he was carrying on as if he were making a summation in a case.

And he said that he was threatening.

We have tied a president in, not this case, but in other things.

What other things are?

We don't know what the hell they're talking about.

In other areas, more specifically, is the word he used.

That they regarded, and didn't consider of importance, they regarded as a collaboration of the earlier threats.

You know, we'll try this administration, Nixon, what have you, what have you.

There's been no conversation by them with Dean since the Sunday we first met.

So this is Shaffer, then?

So this is, whatever's said is through Shaffer, the lawyer.

And what else do you have besides that?

Well, let's see.

They did say that at a later date in this proceeding that the dean went to the president, and I assume that's either February or March or whatever that date was.

But that's in the course of what we were trying to find out.

Well, today they were after the Cubans and the receipt of the money, which they've confirmed.

Dorothy Hunt being the intermediary that passed through.

They're going to have Butterfield in in a few minutes.

What I'm getting at, Henry, about this threat...

There's no more of that.

No more of that, other than what I've just told you.

Why in the hell can't we stop the paper gloves?

It's a curse, it's a bad thing to think about, to bring the president and the thing like that.

Good God Almighty to me.

Now, understand, let me say, if anyone in the grand jury I want to know to do that, I have to know.

It's the Christ.

You know his name.

Good God Almighty to me.

You've got to believe me.

I'm after the truth.

Christ, even if it hurts me, believe me, it won't.

I understand that.

Just like it won't hurt you.

But, you know, I... We were doing our job, and somebody was in here the other day, and they were saying, well, Dean is going to blackmail you because of, you know, something you're supposed to throw their hand in.

I asked him about that, and I said, screw it.

I said, you had a right to tell him what was going on.

The only thing I think is in the four nerves, Dean or Schaffer or this McCandless.

Now, Schaffer says, and it's McCandless that's leaking this stuff to the press.

The Canlis is another lawyer that Dean's retained.

Yeah.

He's leading the press.

They're going to try the president.

Well, other areas is the word they use.

But what those areas are, we don't know.

Now, Silbert said, stop.

He didn't let them go on.

He said, you know, we're not going to get into that.

It's not this case.

That's right.

Now.

Go ahead with your other things.

Well, I told those fellows...

I told those fellows that, you know, I know you can't avoid these reporters all the time, and if you talk to them, at least have one or preferably two witnesses.

I had to take her for that, please.

I'm glad you have that, then.

I heard it, and I thought, the dean must be off his goddamn mind or something.

You know, the man is not...

Well, and Butterfield Inn, and that's in connection with the $350,000.

Now, we're going to have Jack Caulfield into the Granger.

He set up the intermediaries that were being used as couriers to transfer money either to or from LaRue.

Oh, he did?

Yes, sir.

What would be the liability of a man like that?

Would he be a conspirator?

Well, it's done with knowledge.

Yeah.

Well, knowledge, and also, but as a nurse, it certainly has to be willful or... Well, knowledge has to... You know, when you're talking about a conspiracy, you're imputing knowledge, and you impute the knowledge and the facts, unless there's specific evidence.

I'm just curious.

Yeah.

I just don't want to see guys get hurt that didn't want to.

And we don't want to either.

Go after the principals, believe me.

I'm not talking about the prosecution.

We're looking for witnesses, to be perfectly honest.

Sure.

Strachan, you know, they're still negotiating with him on having flunked a lot.

He does his best.

What are you going to try to get him to do?

Plead guilty?

Well, you know...

Basically, I mean, what we're telling Strawn is you'd better make a choice whether you want to be a witness or a defendant.

You could be an handcuff and you'd be technically a witness.

That story, according to him, he just called the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Oh, the boss.

Well, he told us about that.

Yes, sir.

Tell him to read me exactly what you think he called the U.S. Attorney.

He called the U.S. Attorney and said that in... Monday past, an attorney...

representing John Dean, which is in his office, and indicated that we persisted in insistence on Dean that they would be tying in the president, not in the Watergate, but in other areas.

That they would be tying in the president in other areas.

Whatever that means.

Well, that's fine.

Just let them tie us in.

Now, to put that in context, they had previously said that

that if we insisted on trying Dean and not Ehrlichman and the whole of it, that they would be trying this administration, the president, and what have you.

So basically, that's the game there.

I don't understand that word.

Thank you so much.

Just Black, and then Supreme Court.

You indicated that that attorney the other day, they were consistently tying, you said,

they would be tying in the president i mean it was an emotional statement not in the watergate but in other things not in the watergate but in other things what other things but when was this monday monday of this week monday of this week so i think that's what i think this crap is i think it's this thing that we just got that's the only thing

I don't know that.

And they have no idea.

But de-gated, I would say.

Pardon?

De-gated.

Oh, yes, but... That basically ties in the White House.

Well, that was one of the reasons it was so important to disclose that, because they could have hung that over our heads.

You remember when we talked about it in Camp David, I said, don't go into national security stuff.

I didn't mean... Oh, I understand.

They've got to do with that, and that sort of thing.

Because I remember, I think we discussed that silly goddamn thing.

I had just heard about it.

Just heard about it.

I mean, you told me, didn't you?

Is there a photograph?

That was it.

You told me.

What in the name of Christ did they bring in the psychiatrist's office for?

I couldn't believe it.

I think what told him this is... What do you think this is?

Oh, well, I think it's the attorney.

I think he's bargaining for me.

I had occasion to talk to Dean a few minutes ago.

You did?

He was very good.

Well, tell us what you understand.

We've got to watch where you're going.

It's a very important conversation.

He called last night to see if he was releasing a statement.

He said, Ron, I'm issuing no statements.

He said, I am.

He said, I'm going to call.

He said, I'm going to play the meeting game.

He said, I'm going to call.

I do a lot of some nice things we do.

And I call sick people.

I have members of my staff.

I call Ron.

I call Henry just for his name.

And I call Bob, and Paul, and Marilyn, and Joe, who's my secretary, and John Dean.

I think I call Garmin.

I just go around the list of people and say, just my wish.

Well, you know, we've got the report.

Again, I can't see Charlie Shaffer, but he was pleased and elated and reassured.

You know, as a human being.

I don't want to hurt John Lee.

I'd like to help him.

He went out.

Yeah.

Well, you didn't discuss this crazy, this Hirsch story with me, did you?

No, no, no, I didn't.

Well, now tell me about this Hirsch story.

Is it the Times, Compensative, and Aramis?

Yeah.

Now, on the Woodward story, tell us about the Woodward story.

Is it Woodward also has the same story?

Woodward, uh... Or the Post?

Woodward, uh, said that reliable sources, uh, said that someone had educated the president in their testimony, you know, referred to...

In dignity testimony?

No, that was Hirsch.

Hirsch.

Now, what did Woodward say?

Woodward just said they had two stories.

One, uh, was the, uh...

The fact that it was reaching a new plateau.

Right.

And they were not, he was not ready to read the stories in the dairy because they were still working on it.

And Woodward was taking a position that he was confused and needed to talk to someone to get a perspective.

What they're trying to do, I think, is to get a fix on what's happened.

All right.

Take a hard line, Gergen and Woodward, anything on that, they better watch their goddamn cotton-picking faces, because, boy, if there's one thing in this case, as Henry will tell you, since March 21st, I had that conversation with Dean.

I have broken my ass to try to get the facts of this.

Right.

God, I've tried to get that damn lady to talk.

We've tried to get... We've finally got great or precious memory.

Lose a job before that's...

Uh, we finally got, uh, his, uh, I'll tell you why he put Ruck in that thing, rather than...

I didn't think, based on what you had told me earlier, that we should put Feldman, because there's too much nut-cutting over there.

Ruck was housed as a perfectly trustworthy man.

He'll stay...

I know him, and I think we'll love him.

...30 days, and then for that time, we'll have another man ready.

That's not right, Hugh?

It doesn't need to be.

I told Ruck it's a penalty.

He was co-opted into the investigation, and I said, Ruck...

You're to do anything that the prosecutors are ever to do.

Henry Peterson and the prosecutors leave no stone unturned.

I don't give a damn who it hurts.

Now, believe me, that's what he's been told.

So you've got a man there who the- I know him, and I think we're looking, Mr. President.

Well, he's Mr. Clean, you know.

Indeed.

So if you understand what I'm going to say, it's about these here guys.

Yes, indeed.

But there you are.

We've got to knock that crap down.

There's one thing we've got to do.

We've got to maintain the presidency on this.

Because I've got some things to do with this country that I'm not going to have.

And this is personal.

I just said I'd sometimes feel like I should resign.

That Andy would be president for a while.

He'd love it.

I don't even know why.

Oh, listen.

Don't talk about this story.

I don't even know why he wants a job.

Don't talk about this story.

That Andy was getting ready to resign.

That's the Post also.

Well, that's the Post and... And Times.

ridiculous.

He said, I don't know how that happened.

He said, Marsha Thompson's going to turn it off.

What I have to do is have Bergen call Woodward back and say, look, you raised two points with me.

Let me tell you what's going on here, what's going on here.

The president wants to get to the bottom of this.

That's right.

And then have Bergen say, I will not check this

You better absolutely not even go into any emotional concerns about running a story like that.

You just better wipe it out of your mind because there's nothing to it.

There are a lot of games being played here.

That's right.

If you say you want to be responsible and fair, well, you better not go into stories like that.

That's right.

The same with their hearts.

saying, well, the New York Times, and I'm sure.

Well, Herschel's got it on his lap.

Herschel.

Clifford Daniels would have raised it.

Herschel told, well, I call Daniels.

You better call me.

Herschel told Bittner.

According to Herschel, this told Bittner, who told O'Brien that Dean had testified that there was a new, that the president was involved, right?

Not testified, but it was.

I told the prosecutor that the president was involved, right?

I asked him a specific question.

You have Titus and those, say, neither Dean nor his lawyers have said anything to that, sir.

Except this one thing.

They said, I mean, tying in the president, not in the case that is the Watergate, but in other areas.

And the prosecutor said, stop.

We don't want to get into it.

We want to discuss it.

You see, it's not their business to get another...

He said, we don't want to say that.

He was an effective friend, the title of president.

That's what I think.

It's bombast.

It's negotiation.

It's...

Okay, okay, fine, fine.

What have you.

uh just to put this in perspective this is not his ice is about to break in the papers just you know that rumor type yeah uh

Well, I'll tell you, I'd like to sue a few people.

I mean, TR hit it for, what, two minutes, was it?

Yes, sir.

Remember?

By God, they started this crap on me.

They've got a hell of a lawsuit.

Okay, sir.

Let me say this.

Let me ask you about a couple of things.

First, I'm a dean.

I do not want to get into a position.

You told me now that you can do what you want with these if you've given up on them.

You mean, in other words, fired, hired, leave, pretty much the other is waiting for the grand jury acts or something.

Yes, I have three courses.

I can wait on the grand jury acts.

I can take leaves of absence.

I can take resignations.

I have three different courses on all three men, and I can do different things with each one, right?

Yes, sir.

That's my, that leads to the opposite of what I would do remains to be seen.

Now, in Dean's case, I do not want the impression, as I've gone with you before, that by saying, don't grant anything to a major person, that in so doing, I am trying to block Dean getting evidence against Holland or Hurley.

I do not want that.

to others, and I don't want to know.

Do I, have I made myself clear?

Well, yes, sir, and let me make myself clear.

Yeah.

I regard the immunity authority under the statutes of the United States as being my responsibility.

Right.

Of which I cannot divest myself.

Right.

And I would respect the opinion, but I would have to treat it as advisory over.

Right.

Well, understand, I only express the opinion.

I understand.

And understand, you've got to determine who's a major culprit, too.

Yes, sir.

If you think Dean's an agent, let me say, if Dean, I didn't call her a character, but my point is, you have got to, I don't know what your prosecutors say, but if your prosecutors believe

they got to get Dean's immunity in whole or in part in order to get the goddamn case filled.

I'm not telling you what to do, but I'm going to take your decision.

Now, if you talk to the prosecutors about this situation.

They vacillated.

First instance, they have, I think, felt quite strongly that Dean should be immunized.

And I was resisting.

And the last time we discussed it, why they had

Why did they turn around?

Maybe because of what I said.

I don't want that.

No, I don't think so.

Because, one, they're in a position to simply make the recommendation and let me shoulder the heavy burden.

Why do you think that they had turned around?

Well, I think they see the question of credibility.

They've come to the recognition that

If they're going to put him on the stand, he's going to have any credibility at all.

He'll have most credibility if he goes in and pleads and testifies as a co-defender against Hurlington and Haldeman, as opposed to someone who's been given immunity and is testifying against him.

Even an old man like Wilson would tear hell up.

Well, John Wilson, he may be old, but he's one hell of a lawyer.

Oh, I can see that.

He's a top-notch fighter.

I've said twice, but I won't again.

But I was impressed with him.

He's a delightful man.

I could see, I could see, God, I didn't want to be on the stand with him tearing me up.

He must be pretty good.

Yes, sir, he is.

Did you meet Frank Stickler?

Yeah.

They're both delightful people.

Yeah, there you go.

And Stickler, he's a sort of, looks like a big country monk.

But he is very able-bodied.

And they're decent people to deal with.

As adversaries.

They're honorable lawyers.

They're a pleasure to deal with them.

All right.

You've got the new problem.

You saw the deal.

Boy, I told you they're able to be in black.

I don't know.

Who's going to, how's he going to blackmail you?

How's he going to blackmail you?

It's his word, basically, against yours.

It's his word against mine.

Now, for Christ's sake, who's going to believe John Dean?

We rely on the God damn, so Dean, Dean was the one that told us throughout the summer that nobody wanted us to go.

When he himself apparently was involved, particularly on the critical item of subordination of worship.

That's the one.

I will never, never understand.

Yeah.

I mean, I can almost quote him.

He said, Henry, goddammit, I need this information.

That man has designated me to get all these facts.

Meaning you.

And he calls me in there and chews my ass off.

You know something?

And this was before the trial.

Dick Kleindies is about my name.

Dick Kleindies told me this last night when I talked to him.

He says, you know, Mr. President,

I said, did you know how the first time I ever saw Dean alone was in February 27th of 72, except for five minutes when I signed my wills on August the 14th.

They probably repeated it.

I said, thank you, Reverend.

I said, are you kidding me?

i said you know why did you have another he said but dean was around here all the time did he put did he indicate that i was telling you to do this he told me that he had been designated by you to accumulate all these facts and he was reporting to you personally and you were chewing his ass out because if you didn't have it and i you know i went back to him again and i said john are you sure

This information is not going laterally.

I said, not that I distrust you, but where is it going?

Do you know?

He said, Henry, it's only going upward, which I took to mean.

I'm sure.

Oh, I didn't have any problem with that.

You know, I got her in the real world.

Dean comes in here and says, suppose he starts trying to impeach the word of the President of the United States, and says, well, I've got information of the effect that I once discussed with the President, the possibility of the problem of this Dan Pittman thing that I spoke to you about that last... Henry?

Yeah, it won't stand up for five minutes, because...

None was done.

That's it.

None was done.

And, fortunately, I had Alderman in the conversation.

And he was there, and I said, look.

And I said, all right, you can do this, this, this, this, this, and this.

But I said, when you finally get down to it, it won't work.

Because I said, first, you can't give clemency.

Do not.

I agree.

I don't see it happening in real life.

I was just finding it out.

To try to see what the Christ team had been doing.

I said, first, you can't give any clemency.

I mean, you can't, I mean, somebody throwing out something to the effect, being reported, that Hunt had an idea that he's going to get clemency around Christmas.

I said, is he kidding?

I said, you can't get clemency, Hunt.

You couldn't even think of it until, you know, 75 or something like that.

Which you could then, because of the fact that you could get to the...

i said how the hell are you going to get the money if you could do it i mean you got it you're talking about a million dollars i'd ask him what do you remember how are you going to get it to him well i don't know anyway i said you couldn't go through a cuban committee could you i asked him because to me he was he was something so damn ridiculous

I said, well, under the circumstances, I said, there isn't a damn thing you can do.

I said, it looks to me like the problem is still John Ritchie.

And Joe came down the next day.

And we talked about executive privilege, nothing else.

Now that is the total story.

And so Dean, so I just want you to be sure, Dean never raises that thing.

You've got the whole thing and kicked him straight in the ass.

I mean, that's what we have to do.

I don't still see how we can unionize that thing.

That's all he said.

But I suppose he talked to his friends, let's see.

Was he talking to Bittman?

I don't know.

No, Dean was talking to O'Brien, wasn't he?

Dean was talking to Bittman.

Not to my knowledge.

Wasn't that a story that Bittman...

Bittman talked to O'Brien.

Bittman to O'Brien.

Bittman to O'Brien said, well, we need the money.

That's right.

Or was it Bittman to Dean?

I don't know.

They're all unrelated.

They're all similar.

What kind of a guy is O'Brien?

I have only met O'Brien one time and then only recently at a recent bar dinner.

I don't know him.

Bittman, I know well, Tom, just thank God that I broke both social relations with him from the time he represented Hunt.

We had a golf team.

He had just broken.

What is his involvement in the abuse of Hunter?

Well, what he's concerned about is the allegation that he, in behalf of Hunt, was attempting to blackmail the White House for substantial sums of money in return for Hunt's silence.

That's the allegation.

And that's what McCord says.

McCord says it.

McCord says that Darney Hunt told him all this sort of thing.

And so how do you get into that?

Do you have to call Bittman or wait?

Well, we make it into the fee.

The fees are not privileged.

I see.

You say you got them.

Where did you get your fees?

That's right.

And how did you go about that?

We just subpoenaed the fee records out of law firm.

And if you got the fees, did you say, did you blackmail the White House for this?

The White House didn't pay the fees, you're telling me.

No, I think that, one, we tried to trace whether or not the amount of fees reflected on the books of the law firm.

were consistent with the amount of money that's reported to have gone to the law firm.

In other words, what we think happened is a considerable amount went into the law firm, was sent out in fees, and then the balance went on to Dorothy Hunt for distribution to the Cubans and what have you.

The strange thing about this, Mr. President, is that they think

They could have done it openly.

Of course.

They had just come out in a Washington Post and said, well, these people were... Well, look, they helped.

They helped the Scottsboro be the kid.

They helped the Barragans.

And we're going to do this.

You remember the algorithm?

That's fine.

That's right.

And we're doing this.

Bill Lundin contributed to that.

Once they do it in a clandestine fashion, then it takes on the... Takes on the idea of the cover.

That's right, and the obstruction of justice.

Absolutely.

It's the way it was done.

Sir?

I get your point there.

I see that.

In other words, the—so let's look at Bittman.

Bittman says he's trying to blackmail the White House.

All right.

You called Bittman.

Bittman says he extended it to O'Brien to get the money and so forth.

I've been there many days, that's a lie.

You'd be better off to say it's a lie, isn't it?

Yes.

You know, he simply says that this is a statement by McCord that's lacking in veracity and is attributed to the dead woman.

I didn't start the hunt.

Of course, you've got Dean now corroborating that, haven't you?

Well, we have Dean alluding to it, but not in circumstances that we can use it, depending on whether or not...

But people were, you know, they must say, oh, this is also, this is also hearsay, though, on that point.

That's an interesting point.

I'd forgotten.

This is hearsay, because he says that he had heard that Dittman needed money.

I mean, Dittman had said he had had 100.

The link here is O'Brien.

The lawyer.

I see.

Oh, the lady that Dean had heard from O'Brien.

O'Brien, O'Bitman to O'Brien.

No, I say the link in breaking this is O'Brien.

Because O'Brien's a lawyer, he's very scared.

Yeah.

So O'Brien, let's see what he says.

I'm just trying to see where his thoughts are.

O'Brien, did you get him in?

What does he tell you?

How do you see it?

How do you see it just folded up for me?

Well, I don't know that I can really predict.

But conceivably, if he said, as part of the scheme to ensure the silence of those who were convicted, we made an arrangement whereby money would be funneled through Bidman in the form of legal fees for distribution to those people, then you got it.

in the form of legal decrees, I see.

And then you've got Biddle, and then you've got O'Brien, and then you've got the people that did it, if they, at least those who knew.

Yes, sir.

But some, like Collin, might not have known.

Well, does that remain to be seen?

It might not.

The Rue?

The Rue did know, and he had to.

And Mitchell.

You've got Mitchell there, you've got the Rue.

Who else?

The rogue, you've seen the one that used the code name of Rivers?

I don't know whether I heard that name, Rivers.

I heard Baker.

Now there's two.

But these may be couriers that Caulfield recruited, I'm not sure.

And in all that Caulfield is involved, probably only coincidentally, you can't tell us.

They say some of these down there.

But O'Brien, in other words, O'Brien is scared.

O'Brien says that I'm just trying to see how they have ever, well, the only way you could ever get, let me say this, there's no way,

There's no way you can get it to the prison.

I'm referring to this man here.

There's no way you can get it to here, except through the fact that on March 21, Dean, as I had reported to you, did report to me that Bittman had told O'Brien that they needed the money.

They needed the money.

It was discussed.

we i said it can't be done we can't do it he went up to see earlier earlier and said no that's nothing can be done now that is the fact as far as workers that isn't much of a thing for dean to have but you could have better than i suppose dean could have talked to him

And he's got here to say that Dean told him.

But Dean's not credible.

He's not going to be credible on this stuff.

He can't go out and say, look, I talked to the president, and he told me this and that and the other thing.

First, it's not true.

He's likely to say anything.

That's true.

He's not saying, in order to make Dean a credible witness, one, he has to be key, and two, he has to be corroborated in a central degree.

It's not everything he says, but in a sense,

a number of essential factors by other witnesses.

And, you know, he may be corroborated in one respect by LaRue, another respect by O'Brien, and still a third respect by someone else, a fourth respect by Magruder.

You know, and that's the way the case should be built.

Assuming we can bring him around.

Well, there's only this one charge I give to you among many others, and that is

If any of these crack, I mean, I can't allow it.

I believe you should have even, Ruster should have even informed you of this one.

Or maybe not.

I guess they didn't.

Well, you know, I think they described it as bombast and rhetoric and, you know, closing.

You examine them, Mark.

You tell them, I mean, they're my men.

I mean, I'm for it, too.

I want them to do the job.

I want them to come out and smell it right.

And they'll smell it right and they'll get the big fish.

Let's come to the main thing again.

I can give you some more time if you want to negotiate with me, but I say give you more time.

He needs more pressure.

I mean, it's become counterproductive, Mr. President.

What?

It's become counterproductive.

I think he was pressed up against the wall.

He's seen the early morning crisis pass, and now he's had a resurgence.

He sees Ehrlichman here.

He sees Goldman here.

He sees John Dean still here.

Nothing happens.

His confidence is ebbing, coming back rather than ebbing.

And... What do you think, then?

Without your advice, is the proper course of action to ask for Dean, Peter, to...

It's actually two courses of action.

I can take a leave of absence until we...

be clear you know what i mean which of course is a very bill rogers thinks probably the the ferris and at the end and then they resign of course if the war i can take i can ask just resign now the problem with the resignation is that which is let me just say

There isn't any question about what I'll do once you get through your goddamn grand jury.

I just don't, I don't, I don't want to.

I want to give, but I want to give.

I don't want it in effect.

I don't want it in effect by something that I do.

Totally precious.

Even Dean.

I understand that aspect of it.

I understand.

As president, I shouldn't give a damn about that.

But I tell you, I'll speak to the country on this, and I will soon.

But my point is, with the leave of absence, with the leave of absence, we're all free.

I think you have, with the leave of absence, you have the best of both worlds.