Conversation 906-024

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The one point that I wanted to be sure to clarify in terms of the famous .

Is the bottom.

In that conversation, as you reconstruct it all, did Dean feel that he was instructed by me or directed by me to go out and get the money or help get the money for a woman or not?

No.

Are you sure?

Yes.

What makes you sure?

It just isn't what came out of it.

I said, well, it would be good to .

It would be damn important that he not talk about it.

Then we went through the four options.

We can't give a clemency.

We can't so-and-so.

Blackmail is that one.

What did come out of it?

You didn't do anything as a result of eating.

That's true.

You're absolutely sure?

Absolutely sure.

Erland says that he didn't do anything.

Well, Erland wasn't in that meeting.

No, he didn't.

Dean talked to him earlier about this.

The playback I got on that was earlier when he said he couldn't care less, I mean, you know, the hell with him.

Good.

See, O'Brien, I checked with Peterson, is obviously scared.

Scared and shaky, and so O'Brien, as he says, is the key to the Bittman, to bait the whole payoff scheme.

He did this trickery and this one, but the whole deal.

And O'Brien, therefore, if he says, well, they did furnish fees and so forth, they did furnish.

O'Brien's position to say that they'll take that.

I guess Dean, though, Dean claims he had never, he was never involved, actually, in delivering money or anything, was he?

I have no idea.

I don't even know what he claims.

We never heard any of those conversations with us that he came to me.

That he did?

No, but he's never told me he didn't.

Yeah.

Which is kind of interesting, because he's covered a lot of other tracks.

Yeah.

Right.

Now, what he said was that LaRue was doing it.

What he said in that meeting with you was that LaRue was coming.

LaRue, yeah.

He said LaRue was dropping him in phone booths.

really the upshot of our conversation was john we've got to get to the bottom of this wasn't it go write a report or what no no that came later what did they no i don't know when the report came but it didn't come out of that you didn't say you didn't say anything

You know, we sent it later because it was .

You know, in that meeting, we just dribbled off into talking about what the options were and so forth.

Yeah, it went on into sort of off into another area.

This wasn't the focal point of that conversation by any means.

I still remember it that way.

It was the only part of all of it I could possibly think of.

But if it ever comes to that, I'll just say it.

John Dean's credibility that's going to be against any of us, he's going to be in one hell of a spot.

That's his signature point.

Yeah.

Do you agree with me?

Sure.

But I think we're, and I know you're concerned, but I think we're making, all the time we keep being here, we're creating more and more of a problem.

And that's the inexplicable mystery now.

That's, you know, the fact you can't understand why he comes into work in the morning time.

What I want to do, I don't like the three in the back and so forth and so on, but we've got the thing now in terms of the presidency all off.

You agree with me?

Yeah, I do.

But I think you've got to do it in terms of what, do it right for the presidency, too.

Right.

What does the president say to some people?

What do you think?

John's talking about it.

We've talked about it.

We've talked with the other...

Well, the 30-day thing I don't think operates.

I've talked a lot about it since I didn't talk to this fellow about it.

The 30-day thing won't operate because of the fact that what you say in 30 days, you get there and then you're stranded or you come back or you quit.

I don't think it should be that.

I think it should be a 30-day.

I just think it should be illegal.

I think that's what it has to be by and I think it should be couched in the right words and so forth and so on.

I think it's the best thing.

I think the 30-day thing is too gimmicky.

Too gimmicky and I think it's, I think it would cause, I think the leave is, the leave gives a good opportunity to

to handle the problem.

Dean, I don't know, handled it differently.

I mean, what I meant is that I, rather than having him go, may not go weak.

Do you remember, you thought one thing, you and John going first, and then Dean going second.

I don't think so.

I don't think it makes any sense.

All three doing it at once, sure as hell makes no sense.

That, Wilson, yeah.

hit us on this thing.

See, we've got the program.

Now, we meet with the DA Thursday morning, right?

We meet with Dash and the Senate committee staff on Thursday afternoon.

Good.

And Wilson says this program, meeting with those people in face of a leave, is a very tough thing.

Because psychologically, the leave is going to be interpreted as a real break, and we're thrown to the dogs.

And it's unfortunate that it happens before rather than after those meetings.

And he said to think, well, he said preliminarily, if Dean sits here, not on leave, and we go on leave, or if Dean takes a leave with us, that puts Dean in a better or equal position with us.

And he said, if the president fires Dean or takes a resignation and we take the leave, then the appearance is better, even though we still have the problem on taking the leave of losing our mantle to cover from here.

But he said the real thing here is, and I'll tell you just the way Wilson said it, it is not good in any way to put us in parallel with Dean.

He said what the president's doing there is taking advantage of two friends who are willing to be docile, and this is wrong, and you're going to get hurt by it.

Wait.

He said he should fire Dean tomorrow or Monday, and he should hold you through next week.

Now, I argued to hold us through next week because on the basis that I'm concerned,

that if we take a leave, I think we ought to take it before we make appearances, rather than after, because if we take a leave after the appearances, then it looks like we learned that the... Ah, let me tell you what I've decided.

While I'm sitting here about my own thing, I've started to make my own notes.

I've got to try to get up.

I can't wait.

Tomorrow morning, you know?

And, uh...

I'm going to go, I'm going to work Saturday and Sunday on trying to get a statement ready.

I'm going to try to be ready by Monday night.

And say everything that I can.

Lay it all out there.

I don't know how long, how short it can be.

I don't know if it can be that short, but I hold to God.

I mean, you know, it doesn't say enough there.

That's it.

I don't know.

I don't know who the hell can help me.

I haven't got anybody to help me.

That's a terrible, goddamn place to be.

I mean, that's the whole trouble of this fucking thing.

Everybody's in on action, I understand.

Everybody's got to take... Well, forget that.

You see, prices all fall because of these people strongly one way, and you can't listen to people who write that kind of thing, and hate their expressions.

But I'll do it myself.

I don't know.

In fact, I don't think you should worry about that.

But that's what I'm going to do now.

I think, basically, that you've got to take the lead, and I'll take care of Dean.

And I'm just going to do it myself.

Here's...

I suppose what I can do with him, I think it should be a leave.

I mean, if you say fire, but I don't have a case.

If he fires Dean Fowler, he needs to accept his resignation.

Well, all right.

I took a voluntary resignation, so why don't I accept a voluntary leave of absence for Dean?

Who the hell do I have to tell him this?

Carl?

Do I call him?

I don't know.

That's a tough one too, you know, how the hell you deal with people now.

Here's what I'd like you to do, if you don't mind, but I would really encourage you to do this.

I always, I would prefer, Bob, if you could work it out, if you and John take the high road, you know, and say, we believe that, you know, the trust and situation are maintained and so forth, that we are therefore asking for relief.

You know what I mean?

I then get Dean in.

So I have at least certain chances.

I said, I'm going to ask you to take one.

Make him take it after me.

He follows.

Now that is the way I can handle it the best.

And if it's just, you think that's just too damn prejudicial, I guess it's too bad.

Maybe I've got to think of something else.

Wilson says, proceed the other way.

Okay.

And so John, with a certain sense of learning, he says he must take Dean's resignation.

Dean thinks that there's a problem.

There must be a distinction.

You can't sweep Dean under the rug.

Dean is the pivot.

You can't give him any money.

And from a press viewpoint, he's the, and he's looking at it from a press viewpoint, because he's looking at it as a press reaction and impact on it.

See, the thing is, you've got, and I see his argument.

There is, there is,

public impression of Dean that is totally different than the public impression of Erdman and me.

The implication of me is that I must have known about it.

It's the same as you.

They have nothing specific tied to me.

Now Erdman, now they do have a couple specific things tied to, but he's denied it.

And the lawyers feel, they think those are good.

Because they figure it's putting them in a stronger position because you've got specifics and you've got a clearer back on each other legally.

And it puts them in a much stronger position vis-a-vis the prosecutor.

How about the thing on California?

How do you deny that one?

Do you deny that?

Oh, you do deny the system?

No.

I'm talking about the Pat Gray and the Vesco story.

Vesco.

Now, you've got the Libyan embassy, and the California one will come up next, though, because they're going to question him on that.

They're going to question Dean first, and then they're going to question the FBI.

The FBI already has questions there.

Recently, today, he asked them.

Well, they did, and he asked them.

What did he tell them?

I don't know.

Straight story, I guess.

And he said it was a very low-key question.

So it was a little ironic.

He just walked out of here where he had anointed Rutless House as director of the FBI.

And there were two agents waiting in his outer office for him.

So they went to talk to him.

They called the lawyer.

The lawyer said, talk to him.

So he called them that day.

But I have to feel that you've got to help a little here on this, because you always do.

I've got to do this impossible in a way that, that doesn't make his, that doesn't make his irresponsibility, his lie, and so forth, against the president infinitely worse.

Now, God damn it, Bob, that's the issue here now.

That's where you go, man.

I mean, we, I mean, everybody, we tried, and as we did,

acquitted and so forth and so on, but you know what I mean?

John Dean out there, you know, playing it out against the President of the United States is gonna be one hell of a goddamn thing.

I think he may anyway, you understand?

I think, I mean, I don't think he will anyway, either way.

Oh, that's a, well, you understand, now this is, that's what one of these, that's what, I can see where it came in, or this story, or we were in there when you talked about it.

No.

C. Mark Hirsch of the Times had talked to Bittman, told Bittman, and who proceeded to tell O'Brien that he, Hirsch, had information.

Dean had told the U.S., Dean had told the U.S., the prosecuting team that.

the Watergate thing had reached higher dimensions, meaning the president.

Not about Watergate, but about other things.

So I, and Woodward of the Post, according to, had a story of the effect that they didn't have from any source, particularly, that they heard.

So I wanted people to reach higher, more simple.

So I mean, I got Peterson in.

I said, now, God damn it, I want to know what Dean said, because this was not the grand jury.

came back and reported to Deans and said, there's no statement by Deans.

His lawyer, in a very bombastic statement, said, we're on condition to try and present this administration after the president said it.

We'll try to leave the president in on matters other than Watergate.

That was on Monday of this week.

That statement was made.

Now, what that means, what I think is that that's this crap on, you know what I mean?

Well, I don't mean the Deadman Hunt conversation.

No, no, no.

I mean the national security investigations, the leaked operations, and all that crap.

So we shot that down.

But I mean, if you understand now, that shows you how the press is reaching on that one little

Well, yeah, Hirsch is reaching in all kinds of directions.

Has he reached in that other direction?

He would have probably.

Yeah.

He, uh, you know, perfectly, he would have reached with, uh, well, this thing that he logged on Wilson.

I know yesterday it was that Mitchell had said in his presence that Mitchell and I had engineered the cover-up.

Yeah.

And, uh, I suppose he logged something outside.

I think Hirsch is making up stories, but, and Woodward may be getting his stories from Hirsch.

You think Kersh made it up?

I don't know if that was possible, but it's too close to a potential to be assured of that.

I think Kersh made up the Mitchell story, yeah, because he didn't use it.

Of course, he's got plenty of time.

Kersh doesn't rush.

Woodward, they have a standard pattern.

They can check today and another story tomorrow.

Kersh plays a longer game.

Hirsch incidentally told Wilson today, in the course of spinning out some stuff, that he said, John, I have to tell you that nobody is as close to this case as I am to the press.

And I can tell you that they have absolutely nothing that they can hand to your people in Baltimore.

Yeah.

He said, they're trying to kill, but they can't.

They can't.

Yeah.

He said, they can't leave.

That's Wilson's belief.

He does on that.

He thinks he fishes and stuff, but he thinks he, you know, feeds him.

Why would Hirsch run this?

Well, Hirsch was not, Hirsch was not, Hirsch was really probably trying to feed the...

It's all, you know, that shows you how this, how that sort of thing, and what a flimsy piece of goddamn thing it was based on, you know what I mean?

Not a statement, but Dean Hill, the chairman of a lawyer, according to the bomb-busting way that they're going to tie the president in and stuff, other than Watergate.

These lawyers are obviously lobbying out more stuff.

They're going beyond Dean.

I really think Dean is in the hands of people that are worse than he is.

Oh, he indicated that this was not even Sharjah, but the other lawyer.

He spread it all.

He thinks it's money to put this around.

At least the Democrats.

That's right.

You think the lawyers are going to be on me?

Yeah, because I think Dean was genuinely surprised when they had that leak on me a few nights ago that Dean was going to say that I had engineered the cover-up.

Because Dean...

when Ron hit him with that, was startled by it.

He said, I never, I never mentioned all of them.

And I think he gave the guy the story and he said, higher ups engineered the cover up or something.

And the guy elaborated on it and added all of them.

That seemed to be where that came out because, and then the things you end up from going on from there.

I think those guys are, I think he's got people that are,

I guess he gives them the stuff, and they lob it out, and I think they're embossing it.

Yeah.

And they're playing a bomb-busting game.

I'm absolutely right.

Don't take a leave every period before the end of the year.

Then the times, you might as well wait then for the damn jury and either indicts or hasn't been done.

Because it'll look as if something's come out of that goddamn hearing that I had learned, that I had asked you to come and take a look at that, and you see what I mean.

That's not privilege.

Or that we learned something that the other day had something damaging on us, and therefore...

The lead option is now here.

It's either here to be used, or... And frankly, in view of my statement, we're going on Monday, and I've got...

I'm just trying to pull my thoughts together now.

I didn't believe options.

Ah, we had to leave or not, we got dead in my home.

Well, I don't want to feel free to say, you know, that I, I could do this.

Sure, sir, the equitable thing was to fire David and give you two leaves of absence, or frankly, fire David and keep you two, that's the equitable thing, we all know that.

But we also know what we're playing.

And the real tough part is which way you play it.

If you play this game one round, how do you get out of the playing in the next round?

If you play it one round already,

I don't know.

I don't know what his relationship is.

I don't think...

I don't know either.

I'd like to see the

I don't feel I should announce it in my speech.

That makes it the lead of the speech, doesn't it?

Or do you think I should announce it?

No.

No, I don't.

I think the lead should precede the speech.

Or I could do this.

I could say, I'm asking the members of my staff

the next day, you see, you can put it out.

Another way,

I think it sets you into a better position for this part.

Although one point you could make in the speech is, and I have called upon, maybe instead of calling upon, that I shall expect you.

Well, see, that's the problem.

If you do it in the speech, you probably have to do it the strong way, and I think, I don't think that's good.

I think it's better for us to take the initiative on the deal.

Well, I want, I want, see, I think your position is better than you think, because God damn good.

Well, but I was just saying it seemed like the way to put, if you were to do that in the speech, would be to say, I, the question's been raised by some members of my staff as to whether they can,

have a problem continuing their duties and also dealing with this situation.

And I have decided that I will permit those who are involved here and feel the need to, to take leave of absence.

Well, I've asked for all those.

If you say you've asked, then I think we're better off for us to say, do it first.

And I really kind of think we are anyway, and I think you're better off if we've already done it.

But we, and it might be that it ought to be done in that cycle.

In other words, that the Monday evening news says, all of them in Ireland can take leaves of absence, the president to go on television tonight on Watergate.

You don't think he should go out on Saturday?

Maybe.

The president goes on television, so.

Maybe.

It might be better to get it out of the same cycle.

Yeah.

See, the story cycle is pretty all right now.

I wouldn't put it in the cycle in order to hypo it.

I'd put it in the cycle just to have it be a part of that sequence.

No, hell no, you don't need to be hypoing it.

Well, I don't know.

In fact, you don't need to be in Washington.

I'm not sure if you're out.

Yeah, I'm sure if I were in Mississippi, I'd be waiting to hear from you.

Well, let me ask you to do this.

Let me do this.

Why don't you get your statements out for Monday?

I'd like to.

I'd like to, in other words, get some presidential action going soon.

You know, that's one thing about the leave of absence thing.

At least shows we're doing something.

God damn, great.

So on that basis, it would be better to get it out Saturday for Sunday papers.

And announce at the same time the president's going on.

Now, the other way you can do it is this.

I said, you can put it out for Monday, Bob.

So it hits the Monday evening news.

And the president goes on television.

I said, my two top people have been there.

And then I've announced, I have called upon

I said, I wouldn't.

I'd have you do it.

I wouldn't inform you.

And then I don't.

And then I call upon John Dean.

President, the United States cannot call upon some little ship that works for them to do something publicly.

You can call on the United States Senator to do something, or Khrushchev to do something, but not an employee.

No, I don't, I wouldn't go to the TV.

I didn't mean to do that.

I mean, I've called on.

I would, just before going home, I would say, I have also, that I have, after receiving the airs, I have requested, I mean, I have accepted

Maybe that's the way to separate it.

It's a damn tight, close separation.

That may be a way to know.

I have, uh, I have, after receiving that, accepted the, uh,

Mm-hmm.

I'll leave a badge that's for Dean.

Yes, sir.

Now, you say, Professor Maynard for Dean.

Does Peterson have a view on what you're going to do on Dean?

He had the view before you couldn't do anything, and now we've eased you from that restriction, but does he have any

you it's the way you should do.

I mean, they've given up on making a deal with it.

They just, what are they going to do then?

They just haul it into the grand jury and die?

No.

They're not even going to die again.

I guess they're going to still try to make a deal with it, but they, they, they put it at the bottom, but they, uh,

He means at the present time that there's no, they aren't making any headway in making a deal, so therefore he says go ahead and do whatever you want.

See what I mean?

Well, I think maybe, you see, here's a thing I'd like to be a part of.

I don't know exactly what's going to happen.

I want to avoid this.

If I call him in, I probably think I have.

I can't believe, I don't want to be in that position.

I'd rather be in the position to say, John, hold another table for your vets.

I, hereby, therefore, want you to pick up your vets.

Also, that's the only fair thing to do.

In other words, you may need to move first.

And then I call the hand.

I say, now, John, I'm playing on TV tonight.

I want to have your vets in hand.

I see your problem on the resignation.

I'm telling you what the lawyers do.

And I think it's a public view, too.

I think you've got a problem the other way on not getting the resignation, too.

But it's maybe a lesser problem than what happens as a result of forcing a resignation.

I wouldn't ask people at that point, it seems to me.

I didn't.

If you call Dean in and you say, John, as you know, all the women in Oregon have gone on leave of absence.

Now, given the circumstances of this thing, as you will well understand, I must also place you on leave of absence.

Don't ask him to take one.

Rather than calling him in, why don't I just say, I mean, just receive the resignation.

I'd like to get in a different round on that, though.

Well, maybe the way for us to do it, for instance, is to put them out on Sunday for the Monday morning papers.

Right.

And Sunday night television for that night.

That's right.

And then you call Dean on Monday.

That's right.

If you're up at Camp David, for instance, maybe we fly up to Camp David or run up to Camp David on Sunday afternoon.

That's right.

And we say to you, you know, we don't have to see you because, you know, we're trying to bother you.

We go up.

You see, I want you, basically, the best way to use, and I know that the best way to use it, fire D, and then all right, so you fire gray, which we've done, and you fire D, and then haul it in a hurry and ask for reasons of absence.

I'm not so sure that that's the best thing either.

I mean, they're the president's men.

They know it in a decent, you know.

I mean, they're doing it for the good of the office, for the good of the country.

I'm told if you didn't have a letter, I wouldn't let you.

That's the way it is.

That's the one.

Ours is a voluntary leave.

I have a question.

Give me a letter and you do some kind of a response to it.

Other than the television thing, just a little loose response.

What I want you to prepare for me actually is both the lead and the response.

We have to see.

We come up, we submit our request for leave, and you do it with a little statement about it.

And then you come back down from the mountain on Monday.

Or you run the mountain on Monday.

You call Dean.

Or call him in.

Either here or there.

And you say, John, I've thought about it.

He may react.

In other words, when he finds out Sunday morning or Monday morning that we've taken a lead, he may want to get into that cycle.

He may be smart enough to move fast himself.

That's our meeting, which is fine.

That's right.

The other thing I could do is to tell him, is to let Garmer go in.

Tell him I'm a better word for his speech.

And Garmer goes in, and he doesn't react.

He says, John.

Now, I've always heard that the president believes that you should take over.

And if he does not, then Carmen's got to say, fire.

And then you will accept the people, and they'll have to accept your resignation.

You see what I mean?

I'd rather not get in the position to talk to somebody, but you can have him.

I don't want him, Bob.

Well, see, that puts you in that resignation threat.

I don't think you want to get yourself to that.

I wouldn't see...

If you ask him to take a leave and then you say he doesn't, you have to fire him.

I wouldn't do that.

What I'd say is, I'm placing you on a leave of absence.

And that's your act.

You don't ask him to take a leave.

You've given him the chance.

He could have all this time said he wanted to take a leave, just like we did.

And we finally did.

He didn't.

So, our having done it, you're now faced with the question, your two people who haven't been involved, you can't now allow the man who is involved, who you know is involved, to continue.

Therefore, you tell him he must take over you.

You just say, my daughter says, I, the president, asked me to inform you that he is placing you on leave status.

until this is all cleared up, until this matter is cleared up, one way or the other.

He's placing you on the same status.

Now, that gets to the next question.

You put him on the same status, so he's back there.

He's just got to do that for you.

Bob, I'd rather play that game.

I know it's a tough, teary thing, but he isn't going to have the same deal.

I mean, it is going to be a big deal.

yours and John's is going to be a, and I think the idea of you're going Sunday is very good, Sunday for Monday morning papers, with letters and, you know, all the proper accruals together.

And that's that.

Now that puts the ball in Dean's court.

My guess is he may come right to it, but he may not.

Because Dean, in my view, probably wants to come in and talk to me about the minutes and so forth.

And that I cannot do.

You see what I mean?

And Peterson told you not to talk to him.

Because you said at one point, Peterson said you should not talk to him.

Yeah.

Oh, yes.

They said, that's a matter that I cannot discuss.

And so it was.

And Garland is...

I think Garmin, I think Garmin would have to carry a message from the ministry.

See, he can do it if you tell Garmin that what the message is, is just telling them, because John and Bob have gone on leave, that I am now placing you on leave also.

I'm placing you on leave.

What about him saying that he's asking you to assume the duties of counsel?

And you're not asking someone to assume the duties of Ehrlichman and Haldeman.

But that's because those are not specific duties.

They, let's see, we don't have line functions.

Ehrlichman doesn't want Garland as counsel.

I think I've got to put him in.

I don't, I haven't got anybody else in the moment that I can, I'll just put him in, you know, for a temporary thing.

I would say, just as asking to assume the duties of counsel during the time you're on board, you know, for the area here.

So you're going to have to clear up feeling too.

I'll leave that to her, I'll leave that to her.

I mean, the star says they're going to be at ease.

Oh God, I hear something in there.

What in the world could that be, Bob?

I have no idea.

But it's inevitable, they've all been there as a witness if they're going to try to make anything of me.

Oh yeah, a witness, yeah.

whether it is the story of giving the implication that it wasn't, say, Larry Higgins.

He says they've learned.

What Bob Walters of the Star apparently told Jerry Warren is that they've had for several days a number of lawyers have been telling him, you're missing a bet on looking at Larry Higgins, which would be the pending stuff, I presume.

And that Walters then, but he didn't use it because it was all soft stuff.

until today, apparently, he got it from within the prosecution that they do have something that implicates Higby.

And that's all he's got, isn't it?

So he's going with the story.

Higby's only implication, I assume, would be in terms of whether he saw a budget or saw materials.

He didn't.

That was all that he dealt with.

Higby wouldn't be implicated there.

Higby's implication would be as a conduit

on messages from Dean during this investigation period, I would think.

I don't, I don't, I really don't see how it would be implicated, because he really wasn't involved in the money thing, and he wasn't involved in any, uh, well, he talks about his memoranda that he's got under Chrysler's arm, you know, yeah, we have the slightest idea what he's talking about.

Does he say memoranda or just documentary evidence?

The thing I've seen is documentary evidence.

Well, I guess I'd say documentary.

Who knows what that is?

You know, it may be something.

It may be something.

He had me initial it or something.

Authorized a paper or something like that.

You read it?

Well, I don't know what it could be.

And if it was, it was a payment to the committee.

That's all, because that's the only thing I had any knowledge of.

Payment to the committee, you know, the $350,000, or something like that.

That's where we shared it.

I don't know what documentary stuff there could be.

Well, the way I feel about it is this.

I want you and John, I want you and John to go first and do it right.

I don't want Pete to go with you.

I don't want to, I don't want to have, look, basically, I can go this way.

You go the other way and I fire Pete.

He is going to then come out with a hell of a blast that I, what the hell is Bob Herriman and Holder?

and then your leave option is very very badly charged it really is i know it's going to work that way now the other way the other way you go first but you do it in a you know a decent way and then let me take care of me and i'll take care of it i mean i'll take care of it the next day but do it

This has nothing to do with me.

This has to do with you.

Don't ask me to submit a leave.

Tell me he's on leave.

You can do the same thing to me.

Tell me right now I'm not performing.

You're on a leave of absence.

You're suspended from normal duties.

And I don't have a garment.

Go ahead in the morning and say...

to him, uh, who noted that all men are in front of me.

Uh, the, the president is, is, has, uh, asked me to, there's no place if you want to leave, and has asked me to, uh, assume, uh, the duties of consul while, uh, around me.

I need to do it by memorandum together.

Yeah.

So that you don't, you can't get into a bargaining thing with Dean.

Whatever you do with him, he's got to be clean and clear.

It can't be would you or can you.

Well, that's why, you see, I don't want him to come in.

That's right.

To talk to me and talk about a lot of this all over and earlier than that and so forth and so on.

I just want to, I want him to be told.

Now, he'll, he'll end up losing all the blacks going to Garment and say, uh, Donnie, I've got a lot of things I'm going to tell on the president and so forth.

And Garment will sit there.

He's got to be like steel.

He will.

You've got the right plan.

I mean, that's the right approach, Bob, I think.

Our plan is tonight to work out our letters, work out our paperwork, and then go over to the lawyers tomorrow and be sure.

Right.

Anything that bothers them.

I think if we can get all that worked out, then I think we should come up to Camp David and sign that up.

And I'll go up to Camp David in the morning and say, Connor, you ought to go tonight.

You get a decent night's sleep and get to work anyway.

If you go in the morning, you'll lose half the day before you start work.

You'll gain at least a half a day if you go up time.

What you'd probably do is go up at night and work, and then sleep.

You know, work into the night and sleep in the morning.

So I'd probably go up and sleep right back out in the canyon.

It's not really long, day to day.

I like it when it will, but it depends on whether you catch it and strike it.

But, well, I think that's our best route at this point.

And I think, let us, I hate to say it, but I think it's the right route.

Let us run on this course and put it together.

And that's about what I thought.

That 30-day one.

roll out, I'm just too gimmicky.

I'm just not gonna, I can't do it that way.

It should be a leave of absence and then, and you two should move separately and affirmatively until at Sunday.

That's what I'd like to do.

I'll work like a son of a bitch and try to get a little talk and get a speech ready to go Monday night.

Right.

And in the meantime,

I'm not going to see Dave.

I'm not going to see him again.

I'm going to have Gardner come in and say, I mean, the way I look at it, as you know, that in view of, I just said, in view of the, I could even say in view of recent developments, in view of the recent developments, current investigations in the Watergate matter, that I'm, well, I could say in view of the

I think it would, it would frankly make it a little easier for me, you know, I could say, I could refer to the document if you don't, so and so and so and so have, make a link to that.

Robert Hoffman, and so forth, Bob Hoffman, and so forth, uh, in, in beauty, in beauty's documents, in view of, in these documents, uh, I, uh,

placing John Dean on the advancements.

And I'm asking you to assume duties of counsel to the president.

Or I can write that note to him, to the dean.

And if I want to write parallel notes, why don't I go to the dean?

We can work on some paperwork tomorrow, all of this stuff.

i want to put in the note though that you and right and god and that's right i understand because uh that's uh

They have taken me from them, and I say I am a few of recent developments, a few of these and other developments, a few of these and other developments, but it doesn't matter.

I am placing you on leave of absence.

until, uh, you know, the matter is cleared up.

I mean, until this, uh, you know, until, until even, until the, uh, well, whatever phrase we use, we, you know, the two of us work out this phrase until the investigation is cleared or whatever, or I don't know what we say.

It ran into that scene.

Then I, see, then I, in fact,

all of an early resign, I'm sorry, go on leave of absence, is the Monday morning paper.

And then, and then all, next president places dean on leave of, you know, the dean's leave of absence is garnering, and so forth.

That might give it some separation on the TV, it might not.

muddy tv i think it will might say yesterday holland and earlier requested leaves and today the president placed john dean on leave or they may say all of them are on leave of absence the president's place

I want to separate.

Give things a little time to think.

That may be better.

I really think it is, Bob.

I think it is better.

It is better.

Better to get my mindset clear too, you know.

I'd give him 24 hours to think, and if I don't think, and if he doesn't indicate what he's going to do, he may request to see the president, and I would turn it down.

Wouldn't you?

Yeah, that's the answer.

You know, I'm worried you're going to talk about it.

Because I, you know, the thing I can't, you see, but I'm really trying to avoid at all costs here is to get to any position where John Dean tries to bargain with me about, well, even mentioning him, see, or mentioning how he's going to plead.

You can't.

I can't help it.

You can't.

Because in the first place, you're then hostage to him.

I'm hostage to him.

And anything that's really large enough, he can put that on too.

That's why you've got to, and Chris, this is the absolute bedrock, very minimal, that you can do.

You're going all out in an effort to maintain his position, which he has to proceed.

Well, it's going to be a call that is

There's going to be a move that's going to catch him by surprise.

And he likes to be in the same bag, see?

And they're not going to let him do that.

You do it over a weekend.

They'll let him just hit you.

And he isn't consulted with it.

Nobody tells him anything about it.

Okay.

Let us do the work on this.

You forget about this stuff.

Would you mind— Let us run the whole project down.

Let's try to get it—Bob, I really feel strongly that you could send me for Sunday papers.

I think—I mean, I think we need the separation.

And I've decided that—and don't you agree I should go Monday night and get the man thing over with?

I sure do.

If you, and you can, I'll prepare something.

I'll be ready to get it done.

I understand.

You can do it.

It's probably better to do it, you're all broiled up in it now, it's better to do it and get it done than to have to diddle around with that and take a break for Willy Ron and then try to get back to it.

And you got Ron for a return meeting Wednesday morning too, don't you?

The Wednesday night thing is bad.

i think one that i would like to do i'm going to do something to clear that so i will not be free of that diplomatic credentials

Well, we've got the German ambassador.

I can't do that diplomatic credential thing for the German ambassador, but what I will do is to let him present his damn credential if he wants the morning of the bronc.

You understand?

Yes, sir.

Just have it done here in the office or some goddamn thing.

But I'm just trying to be easy.

So he can come into the office and present his credentials so that he's in for that.

Very good.

Okay.

There's a potential difference.

I've got to keep all things clear.

Then I think I'll have...

I think you're right, I'm going to go to Camp David tonight.

Order the helicopter, will you?

Yes, sir.

How long does it take?

About 23 minutes.

Yes, sir.

Well, I think possibly what I'd better advise you is probably go over to your bike here.

It's a little bit late now.

I'll see you in a minute.

Wait, no, no, no.

Don't worry about it.

You should get the helicopter, but eat dinner while you're waiting for it.

I think I can always shut down the agents, Mr. President, and just wait.

That's a good job.

Well, let me say that I'd like to take the time, but I think what I will do is take the helicopter and...

It's 9 o'clock.

9 o'clock, yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, 9.30, that's fine.

Yeah.

Let's see.

I'll go over the key, let's see.

Have the helicopter available by 8.30.

8.45.

All right, so I have number one, 8.45.

Is there anyone, anyone you played good or anyone in the house here?

No.

Steve, and also, if you would give Rose a call and tell her to scream to carry on with the assignment, please.

Get that message to her.

You get the goddamn message to her.

Maybe if you don't want Rose to pay you, you can rule it.

I mean, you need to prepare that.

Yeah, Rose can do it.

I know she's aware of it.

She's not.

All right, Rose can just find out now.

yeah the game plan uh

No, no, we should get this stuff done.

I don't think we should get this done.

I think we ought to come up with a time plan.

Now, let me say this.

I feel strongly that tomorrow is the better day.

I really feel strongly.

Separate it by a day.

And, uh, what do you feel that, uh, we can, we'll, we'll, we'll, after all your time, stand by and we'll get with them.

write the best things I've written, the best letters you can, you know what I mean?

And do the other CD when, so in order to make it tomorrow, you have to come around, like, 12 o'clock.

And I'll handle it.

I don't think it's necessary.

I know the problem.

You know the problem.

I mean, it's not easy.

Look, a little son of a bitch doesn't have anything.

Really.

That's right.

That's what bothers me.

Well, I know.

But on the other hand, he shouldn't have anything.

I fight it.

But he can make the public stand.

But he can make it.

And right now, Bob, we've got to at least make as much of an effort as we can to keep him from it.

Just being too vicious publicly.

You can see that, can't you?

Yeah.

Don't you agree?

Yeah.

I mean, I feel that we can handle your problem separately that way.

Saturday, I want to handle it totally different with the son of a bitch.

And then I'll handle him on Monday.

Now people will say, well, what's happened to Dean?

And that's all right.

That's a one day story.

They'll wonder about John Dean.

But the next day, I'm going to move on with our government.

Well, the day they'll be wondering is Sunday.

It doesn't matter what people wonder on Sunday.

On Sunday and Monday.

Well, no, no, no.

But I think we've got to do it Sunday morning.

We've got to do it.

Will you do Dean Sunday morning?

Monday morning.

I would have been in Monday morning.

I'm sorry, Monday morning.

Yeah.

The letter I filed there, he was prepared.

He had to give me a line.

He was.

And they said, you know, I'm going to go out all the time.

I'm going to take every question.

I'm going to use the badges and so forth.

I'm going to show them.

In view of, uh, in that paragraph, in view of recent developments around Watergate matter, I, I have placed a few of these advances, and have asked, uh, a mayoral interest in the office of the Super-Responsible Council, uh, uh, during that period.

These letters should be, they should be prepared so that you, you bring them up with you, and I'll sign them down then.

I don't know how I handled it, but I, yeah, I used to tell him on the phone, I guess, that the whole score is, play a hard time.

And there may be time, but say, look, we can't, we can't discuss any of their things about the terms of how you should leave the arrest because the, the abuser says that's his responsibility.

Yeah.

You mentioned this, but I asked Peterson about it, and he said, no, that's his responsibility.

That's his responsibility.

To get into that.

Sure.

And then we'll just find out, and then at least we'll find out what the hell the rest of his threats are.

Maybe.

We may not.

If your theory holds up at all, it may be that...

It may be that Dean was interested.

It's going to be quite as cocky.

I don't know.

Why didn't you say that?

I don't know.

I don't see what he can do.

Oh, yeah, but by his hearsay, I mean, you know, by his say-so, he can try that.

He decides to, but once he does it, it's of no value to him.

The only value is the threat to him.

If you call this blood, and he carries out the threat, he's done nothing but monitor himself.

Because he's wiped himself out.

The point you made, the only last hope he has is after that.

If I were he, and I were going to threaten you, and I thought I had something, which maybe he thinks he has, I would guess he knows he doesn't, but he's got the threat of public exposure.

You know, if he can make a fuss,

I'd hang on to it.

I wouldn't use it, because once you've used it, there's nothing left.

I'd hang on to it and go to jail, and then I'd use it to get out of jail.

I mean, it seems to me, if you follow the way his mind is working, he's looking after his own ass.

That's what he's interested in.

I don't think he has any interest in bringing down the presidency.

I think he has a deep, I don't think he would want to do that.

Don't worry.

No.

Why not?

Because I don't think, I don't think anybody does.

Unless he goes for a serve.

There's that.

He just totally flips, and I think he's, you know, I'm going to have to.

Strange move, everybody has faced that.

But what does he mean from that?

So he becomes John Wilkes Booth or something, and so what?

I don't think he's that warped of mind, no.

I think he's obviously a vicious and evil enough guy to be willing to use everything at his command, any way he feels he can most effectively use it.

But once he's used it, once he's shot the thing he did, that's his last run.

So why shoot it?

Because shooting it doesn't do any good.

It can't do anything.

I mean, he can't do any good with it.

It's the threat that does it good.

He can't do himself any good.

Except for satisfaction, if that can be a game of causing a big mess.

I'm not so sure, I would guess he's not so sure how much of a mess he can really cause anyway.

You don't think he's so sure?

No, I can't imagine that he is.

He's playing a very large bluff, but to his credit, it's working.

Well, in a way, he's...

Well, the son of a bitch has acquired confidential information, which he's using.

That's the real bad part of what I mean.

Goddamn.

I mean, here in the White House, he said he was the counsel of the president.

Reagan would be putting out this stuff about that.

You know, that Reagan would be putting out stuff that he got as counsel.

It's unconscionable.

The son of a bitch is finished.

It might do anything.

I think he's finished with everything.

He should be.

Huh?

He should be.

Right.

It's your life.

There seems to be a place in the world for people like that.

You seem to thrive.

Oh, I think you're right.

I should do a campaign today.

You think so?

Yeah.

I'm always asking advice in this space about little things.

No, you're going in.

That's important.

Go in and shift gears and get on this because that TV speech is the main important speech.

Sure.

They all are.

They always say that.

And they all are.

And they are.

Every one of them has been.

They've made a hell of a difference.

And this one will too.

I'm not worried.

You don't need it.

You're curious.

78% voted for you.

I'll bet you 78% are still for you.

They don't believe what they see in the news, I guess.

They might even say forty-six hundred percent.

I might say with Gallup, they thought I knew about the Watergate.

They'd still vote for you.

Isn't that a curious thing?

The Watergate isn't that big of a deal.

They think the kind of things Fennis talked about.

Coming through?

No, that's coming through.

Well, I didn't talk to the president.

Did you ask him out, too, or did one of you ask him out, too?

I think it's Ron.

See if he's torn out.

I think he is.

He used to go to my place.

He gave me a check cycle.

That's right.

You know, Dennis was hanging around at 6.

He sits there, sweating out.

That's where we've got to go, ain't he?

Well, this thing today, I mean, this food storage, urgent, what are you?

It's got to reach higher levels and all that.

I don't think that is.

However, a lot of that is this goddamn gamesmanship of the press.

Do you think so?

No, it's... President.

No, I'm kind of... No, I don't think they logged it out.

That's part of the threat process.

Let's see if we can... Ah, yes, sir.

Let's see if we can... Mr. Zinger, please.

Ah.

Uh, we're talking to him.

Yes, sir.

Uh, uh, you've got the dog, uh, it's a big dog.

Is that all right?

Yes, sir.

Uh, he's getting there.

I'll send him to that home.

Yeah, I'll send him to that home.

He's getting there.

Are you in your office?

Oh, could you come in just a second, please?

All right.