Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 909 › Conversation 909-026

Nixon, Rogers & Cole on Watergate and White House Counsel

Wednesday, May 2, 1973 · 12:11 PM–12:30 PM ET · Oval Office · 19 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Rogers, William P.; White House operator; Cole, Kenneth R., Jr.Conversation909-026 on Tape 909StartWednesday, May 2, 1973 at 12:11 PMEndWednesday, May 2, 1973 at 12:30 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 909-026 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and William P. Rogers met to discuss the staffing of the White House Counsel position following the resignations of H. R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, as well as the ongoing management of the Watergate scandal. The two evaluated potential candidates for Counsel—including George H. W. Bush, John W. Byrnes, and others—emphasizing the need for a candidate with legal expertise who could effectively manage Cabinet and Congressional relations. Furthermore, they reviewed the search for a Special Prosecutor to handle the difficult legal proceedings involving high-level administration officials, ultimately favoring individuals with strong integrity and non-partisan backgrounds.

Audio

Download MP3 · 33.9 MB

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

· Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).
Well, at the end of the day, it's a little over.
Yes, it is.
You have to hear Bob Sue monitor for me on this.
Old and no confidence.
You hear me, General?
Before the poor son of a bitch gets in, you can't just say you've got to find somebody by the Senate outside.
What's he going to do?
He's going to use the FBI.
It'll take him six months to get as far as they have now.
They didn't know what the hell they were doing.
Now, if anybody's going to use the FBI, yeah, can it.
sign that, you know, the economic statement.
Yeah, well, I, uh, I don't need to see it, no.
I don't need to see it, so you can send it out.
I mean, we have the agreement on it, so you let it go and tell them that I approved it, okay?
Bye.
So, what has happened is that Goldwater and Buckley and a few others like that, who were co-sponsors of this resolution,
Uh, they were co-sponsors of it before your speech.
Uh, I'm going to get up and make speeches today that they, uh, they were not co-sponsors.
They thought your speech covered it all, and they were, they regret that Percy did this.
Uh, what, we're going to try to... What did they vote for?
They voted for Adam's speech.
No, I don't think so.
They went on the floor.
See, there are only about five or six of them on the floor.
Oh, it's the White's vote, that's right.
Yeah.
Uh, and what I'm going to try to do now is get Percy to see if I can't get that little son of a bitch to...
to say some nice things about Elliot, and...
I don't care.
Don't have love for him.
As I say, he can be present or anything else, but he must not reflect on Elliot Richardson.
Well, he knows.
I thought...
I know, I know.
He, uh, he looked very uncomfortable.
He knows he made a mistake.
And it was just, uh, because he's so goddamn avaricious, he's run for office and ambitious, and he...
He's trying to separate me.
Oh, he looked at me, uh,
No, I didn't.
I heard he, I saw that he was going.
I showed you.
He just said, I arrived here today to show the bastards.
Pretty good, isn't it?
Called me at 10 o'clock, said, you know, it's 11 o'clock today.
I showed him the Republican Party.
That's great.
That's good news.
Yeah, that's good.
I'll shake up everybody.
Suppose he wants to be Secretary of Defense?
No, I don't think he should be in the government at this point.
I think that would be too obvious, in fact.
I think Connolly, uh,
on that council thing i uh i don't i told ken cole to think of the government people he doesn't have to be any any towering man
You see, the council does things like they do all the security checks, for example, on our people and say, this guy does or doesn't pass.
And so that's our, and it's just a lousy routine job.
But I just need somebody in there that I can...
It'll take on that significance in light of Dean's activities.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, in the public mind.
you need somebody right at your right hand that can oil the machinery and keep things moving that you can turn to and
Well, not really.
I don't like that concept.
But I think you've got to have somebody around who's judged with respect, who can get along with the cabinet, who wants to bring the cabinet into the act, who's conscious of it.
The cabinet secretary, basically.
That's right.
Who knows Congress, understands Congress, doesn't like to fight with them.
He doesn't have to agree with them, but he just doesn't like to fight with them.
Johnny gets George Bush.
very busy, that's all we have in New York.
Yeah, George is a hell of a man in terms of integrity and decency and such.
I know.
But the two that have that quality are Bush and Harlow.
They both have that quality of getting along with people.
Disagreeing with people is still getting along.
What if you brought a Bush in, what would you do?
What if you make him law?
He's not a lawyer, so I couldn't make him counsel.
No, I'd just make him... Assistant to the President.
Assistant to the President.
And I would have, I wouldn't have the, I wouldn't have the function of Chief of Staff.
Well, there isn't going to be a Chief of Staff, no more.
I'm through with that.
No more.
I prefer this way.
I was beginning to work this way anyway, and I much prefer it's going to work out fine that way.
I'll tell you, Agnew was so pleased last night.
He took me aside and told me how pleased he was.
He said the President was great, and I feel so much better than him.
is getting bad advice and he doesn't know what to do and i said i said stay on all these damn fights i said don't say anything i said people are telling you to say something and butter up the president just just just be a good vice president he wants to do well but he isn't very smart no but he's also he's dignified and he's thoughtful if you tell him things
But I think...
But I thought you worked in good luck for making him vice.
I thought it was good to make him vice chairman of the Domestic Council or vice.
Some will think he's too conservative, but that doesn't really matter.
No, as a matter of fact, you have to make the decisions.
Yes, I do, as a matter of fact.
But I did this morning with the Quadrat, and we've got to get a little Phase 3 announcement today on the pre-reporting requirements for major enjoyment to major corporations.
Bush would be good.
Harlow.
I noticed that the papers of Mason Rumsfeld, I don't know anything about him.
No, he doesn't have the Rumsfelds, probably.
Whoever has this job, it doesn't have to be like Bush or Harvard.
They've got to go talk to people.
That's right.
They've got to talk to them and come in.
You know what I mean?
That's right.
I think Bush's possibility.
Bryce.
Bryce, no.
I just know Bryce.
I just know he can't do it.
He can't do it.
One thing about Bush, he'd be very easy for you to work with.
Yes.
He's not quite as precise as you like.
But you know, and you can't, you can't have both.
In a sense, Mr. President,
Bob and John were a little like German Adams.
They both had that saying.
They were efficient.
But the reason they didn't talk to a hell of a lot of people, man, both the conservatives and the liberals, and they demanded...
They demanded total...
It was the way they handled it.
Yeah.
Well, anyway, that's done.
But Bush is a possibility.
You know, they're very... You've got to have some money to know.
The only one currently...
to have good children relations.
One murder would be good, except that the job is so big that I just can't pull them out of there.
Lynn, almost anybody can do that job.
I mean, they should be now because we're not...
I don't know enough about Lynn.
I don't know whether he's had enough experience in the town or not.
Somehow the
He was in Congress for four years as a counsel over there.
Basically, he knows the town pretty well.
Well, I was thinking about Congress.
Do they like him pretty well?
My information is that he has gotten along very well, but I'm going to have to check.
I'm going to have to check.
Linden is the right age, and he's strong, and...
You know, he's a hell of an interesting man.
He's like his father in that respect.
He's a man of great integrity.
He has understanding, and he's not sanctimonious or self-righteous, but he's got great integrity.
He's got great integrity.
without being religious.
He's a very decent lawyer.
Let me think of a lawyer.
I do need a lawyer.
I noticed George McKinnon incidentally had a slight heart attack.
Oh, yeah.
But I think it breaks his heart, wouldn't it?
Does he have any money this time?
He gets this job, he gets lifetime.
Well, it's possible, I'm not sure, I may be wrong about that.
If you've been on the bench 15 years...
Yes, I've been on that long.
Oh, you do?
Well, yes, sir.
See, what they do is they get a life, they get that salary for life.
If they've been on 10 years, they forget to be 70 or 50 in there.
I mean, 10, 10.
He'll never last that long, though.
George, you see, he is about 68 right now.
Yeah.
And you appointed him, so he's only been on a short time.
That means, yeah.
I mean, he would just have to come here.
He has to.
He'd have to resign.
That means he'd give up his... See, they get whatever it is, $35,000, $40,000 for life, and they can quit after a certain age and still get the salary.
Let me ask you this.
How about having... How about just suggesting to Elliot that he need Pat Brown as the special boss?
I can't.
I have such disrespect for him.
The one that seems most natural to me is this Sears from Chicago.
He's a man.
He's 70 years old.
He's been active in the Bar Association.
I was talking to Kleinbeest.
He says he knows him and has liked him very much.
We want to actually try a case against Mitchell.
It's going to be probably a slim case anyway.
And you might lose it.
And I mean, there's a difference between masterminding it and trying it.
Trying one of those cases is a hell of an ordeal.
And most people haven't tried a case like that.
They don't know what it's like.
And
I mean, all these people, the Hill Act, they don't know anything about it, but these are tough damn ordeals when you're a prosecutor.
It's not any jury right.
You've got to convince 12 people in a dam.
It takes forever these days.
Christ.
All the legal maneuvers.
Couldn't have a fair trial in this place.
I just said I really need somebody I didn't know in that position.
I wish Johnny Burns had a little money on him.
Yeah, damn right, he'd be good.
He retires.
He'd be good.
Is he making any money?
You sure you couldn't get it?
He'd be great.
In fact, he'd be the best one I could think of.
He's got a lot of respect on the hill.
He's a smart fella.
He works well with you.
He's tough.
He wouldn't, uh...
He'd give it to you straight.
He wouldn't...
I know.
So that's the kind of man I want.
I want somebody to call in and talk to as an equal.
I think that's what I'm trying.
You don't?
Sure.
You mind asking?
What?
Would you just say, John, would you do it for a year?
I don't know where he is.
What are you doing?
He's probably a little bit out of some place.
He's a hell of a nice guy.
Wonderful guy.
And counsel the president.
Make him a real counsel to the president.
Be glad to.
Give him a call.
It's a long call.
The other possibility, I think, is George Bush.
This is funny, you always have men that are available.
And usually only one.
But you also do, am I doing a little fire check on them?
Of course, that's one of the things I say about George Bush.
George would be very easy.
He understands the problem.
He would not, he's ambitious in the right way.
I mean, he's not a, he's not a self-seeking kind of a guy.
He's very loyal to you.
Sure is.
Well, if you don't mind, give him a call.
I will.
I'll give him a call.
Check in with somebody.
He says no.
At least you've got the Germans out of your hair.
You've got to go to the opera tonight.
Good.
Good.
We've got an island landing coming next week or so.
Weekend?
Yeah.
For a visit?
Yeah.
Take this weekend.
Well, it's just a one-day visit.
You're getting the banana, and I know you're looking forward to its toast.
I'm getting the banana?
Yeah.
Oh, God.
I, uh... Oh, God.
I told, uh...
I like this man now.
I told, uh, the desk guy, I said, Jesus, get word to the Ethiopian ambassador.
He nodded and he had to make a speech.
I'm going to leave tomorrow at noon.
I have quite a few little things to get done before then.
Thank you.

NARA Description

On May 2, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, William P. Rogers, White House operator, and Kenneth R. Cole, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:11 pm to 12:30 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 909-026 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 909-26

Date: May 2, 1973
Time: 12:11 pm - 12:30 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with William P. Rogers.

       Meeting with Willy Brandt
                                             -43-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                             Conversation No. 909-30 (cont’d)

       Watergate

The President talked with the White House operator at 12:11 pm.

[Conversation No. 909-26A]

[Begin telephone conversation]

[See Conversation No. 45-139]

[End telephone conversation]

       President’s statement
              -Economic Stabilization Program

       Watergate
             -Special Prosecutor
                    -Elliot L. Richardson
                    -Senate resolution, May 1
                            -Senators’ understanding
                            -Significance
                            -Implications of “no confidence” vote
                    -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI]

The President talked with Kenneth R. Cole, Jr. between 12:11 and 12:12 pm.

[Conversation No. 909-26B]

[Begin telephone conversation]

[See Conversation No. 45-140]

[End telephone conversation]

       Watergate
             -Senate resolution, May 1
                    -Barry M. Goldwater and James L. Buckley
                                          -44-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                        Conversation No. 909-30 (cont’d)

                       -Possible statements
                -Charles H. Percy’s role
       -Percy
                -Possible statement on Elliot L. Richardson
                -Motives

John B. Connally
       -Political affiliation
       -Possible role in administration
               -Defense Secretary

David Packard
       -Forthcoming meeting with President
              -Possible role as Defense Secretary

Counsel to the President
      -President’s conversation with Cole
      -Role
               -John W. Dean, III
      -Possible candidates
      -Qualifications
               -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and John D. Ehrlichman
               -Rogers’s opinion
                       -Cabinet
                       -Congressional relations
      -Possible candidates
               -George H. W. Bush
                       -Commitments
                              -Republican National Committee [RNC] chairman
                       -Strengths
               -Bush, Bryce N. Harlow
                       -Strengths
               -Bush
                       -Possible role

White House staff organization
      -Chief of Staff
             -President’s preference
                                      -45-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                    Conversation No. 909-30 (cont’d)

Spiro T. Agnew
       -Conversation with Rogers, May 1
       -Meeting with President, May 1
                -Watergate
                       -Public statements
       -Intelligence, dignity
       -Possible foreign travel
       -Domestic Council
                -Attendance
                -Role

Quadriad meeting
       -Agnew’s attendance
       -Phase III of Economic Stabilization Act
              -Announcement
              -Pre-reporting requirements
                      -Large corporations

Counsel to the President
      -Possible candidates
               -Bush and Harlow
               -Donald H. Rumsfeld
                      -Suitability
                      -Senate candidacy
                      -Interpersonal relations
               -Bush
               -Harlow
               -Bush
               -Qualifications
                      -Precision
                               -Authoritarianism
               -Bush
                      -Republican National Committee [RNC] commitments

Haldeman and Ehrlichman
      -Compared with Sherman Adams
      -Relations with Republicans, Democrats
                                    -46-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                   Conversation No. 909-30 (cont’d)

Counsel to the President
      -Possible candidates
               -Bush
               -James T. Lynn
                      -Qualifications
               -Caspar W. (“Cap”) Weinberger
                      -Health, Education, and Welfare [HEW] Secretary
                               -Workload
               -Lynn
                      -Housing and Urban Development [HUD] Secretary
                      -Previous experience in Washington, DC
                               -Maurice H. Stans
                               -Commerce Department
                               -Congressional relations
                      -Age
                      -Strength
               -Bush
                      -Capability
                      -Compared to Prescott S. Bush
                      -Integrity
                      -Intelligence
                      -Decency
      -Need for legal background
      -Possible candidates
               -George McKinnon
                      -Health
                      -Current judgeship
                      -Integrity
                      -Pension
                      -Age
                               -Retirement
                               -Pension

Watergate
      -Special Prosecutor
             -Richardson
             -Edmund G. (“Pat”) Brown
                                       -47-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                        Conversation No. 909-30 (cont’d)

                       -Rogers’s viewpoint
                       -Previous experience
                       -Temperament
               -Possible Democrat
               -Barnabas F. Sears
                       -Qualifications
                       -Rogers’s conversation with Richard G. Kleindienst
               -Qualifications
                       -John N. Mitchell
               -Difficulties of forthcoming prosecutions
                       -Burden on prosecutor
                               -Jury
                               -Possible motion for change of venue
                                       -Mitchell, other possible defendants
                                       -Washington, DC

Counsel to the President
      -Possible candidates
               -John W. Byrnes
                      -Finances
                      -Family
                      -Intelligence
                      -Experience
                      -Possible dynamic with President
                      -Meeting with Rogers
                               -Interest
               -Bush
               -Lynn
                      -Rogers’s check
                      -Age
                      -Strengths
                               -Experience
                               -Precision
                      -Working style
                               -Relations with colleagues, Cabinet
               -Bush
                      -Working style
                      -Ambition
                                               -48-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                                Conversation No. 909-30 (cont’d)

                             -Loyalty
                      -Byrnes
                             -Telephone call with Rogers
                                    -Interest

       Rogers’s schedule
              -Brandt’s Head of State visit, German officials
              -Opera

       President’s Schedule
              -Haile Selassie
                      -Head of State visit
                              -Dinner
                                     -Toast
                                              -Possible message to Dr. Minassie Haile
              -Florida
                      -Timing

Rogers left at 12:30 pm.

Also recorded on May 2, 1973

  • 045-139 12:11 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at 12:11 pm.
  • 045-140 12:11 PM · 33 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Kenneth R. Cole, Jr. talked on the telephone from 12:11 pm to 12:12 pm.
  • 045-141 12:33 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:33 pm and 12:48 pm.
  • 432-009 12:33 PM · 20 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:33 pm and 12:48 pm.
  • 432-010 12:33 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:33 pm and 12:48 pm.
  • 432-011 12:33 PM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:33 pm and 12:48 pm.
  • 432-012 12:33 PM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:33 pm and 12:48 pm.
  • 432-013 12:33 PM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:33 pm and 12:48 pm.

All 82 conversations from May 2, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 909-026, May 2, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/909-026 (accessed October 5, 2026).