Conversation 909-027

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The first two are to thank you for your speech.

One, two, for your comments in the cabinet which got back to me, which I'm very grateful for.

Three, I had a call from Krogel, and he's concerned about you and wanted me to talk with you.

And maybe you'll want to talk with him or not, I don't know.

It's with regard to this Belfer break-in business.

He would like to

make an affidavit that will establish that there were no results from that thing so that the Ellsberg trial could go on.

He talked to Richardson yesterday at length about it, told Richardson a lot about the whole leak operation and so forth, and made a clean breast of things.

All right.

Bud says he is concerned about

Two aspects.

First of all, Garment has asked to see him and has asked you to see the FBI.

He says he won't see the FBI because the FBI put out money.

But he has told Garment he would talk to him.

He says the big problem in this thing is the obstruction of justice aspect of it and the failure of anybody to report it after they heard about it.

He says that when he was being prepped for his confirmation, and this is why I needed to talk to you so that you would have these facts.

When he was being prepped for his confirmation back in late November, early December, Dean told him that Peterson, Hat Gray, and Earl Silver all had seen those pictures.

That's not what I have to know, sir.

But then he says, Richardson was asking questions like, well, when the president heard about it in March, why didn't he do something?

Why didn't he stop the trial?

Why didn't he tell the judge?

Why didn't he do this or that?

Why did he wait till this thing all came out from Dean in April?

Krogh told him that he knew that Peterson knew.

But he said, I didn't stress the point with him.

Not only what happened was Peterson informed me of it, and I told him to inform the judge, and he informed the judge.

That's the way it happened.

Exactly.

Okay.

And I want him to tell Richardson that.

All right.

And Peterson will so state the moment Peterson came in and said, we've got this stuff, this picture, this thing, we're going to inform the judge.

No, no.

The claims came in.

That would have been that Sunday in April.

No, not the 21st.

A little later.

It was after that.

After that.

As soon as they got this picture, then, Kliney's came in and we got this picture.

He said, look, we got this, uh, we found this in our, uh, in our, uh, Watergate, in our Watergate, uh, investigation.

Kliney's went back to South, well, they went back to the troop.

Kliney's came in.

That's the first thing they knew about what they had.

a uh but was concerned that you might be growing wicked in this thing that's right came in and said to me he said mr president we've got this in information let me see if i can remember exactly what he said it was over the eop this was after march 23rd

He said, we've got this, we have this information that's been developed in the water media hearing with regard to the fact that there was a break-in to the Ellsberg thing, and that it was a piece

No, no, no.

These were a piece of paper from Peterson to Gunny Maroney and everybody else.

All right.

That was the first I knew about it.

He informed me, and I said, inform the judge immediately.

That was my first knowledge, and he used to know that.

Okay.

Now, Krogh is in this situation, for your information.

He says to me...

I want to read this to you exactly so that there's no question about it.

I've been trying to figure out a way if I can.

I didn't know about the breaking.

He didn't know one way or the other.

He doesn't know.

I knew about it afterwards.

Nobody ever talked about it until this damn thing came.

Go ahead.

He says, I'm trying to figure out a way if I could just come forward and say, all right, this is something that was under my responsibility.

We did it, and yet it's very difficult for me to know exactly what we did or did not authorize.

Because after it was over, as you know, we were so upset and just said, this is it, no more.

It exceeded every instruction or any general guideline we had.

But he would like to come forward and be able to say,

that there were no proceeds from it, no fruits of it.

And that's what, well, but you see, I advised him, pursuant to your instructions, as I did Young and others, that this was impressed with the national security director.

So then... And if he says there's no proceeds, he'll say whether it's proceeds or not, if they mean it.

Well, no, he just wants Lee to talk about that.

All right, he can do that.

He can do that.

He must do that.

There was no proceeds, and it was not brought after that.

But I want him to call Rayson, if he would, immediately, and to say that Clint East informed me of this.

The first knowledge I had was Clint East informed me, and I immediately directed that Clint East

And Cliney's, well, I didn't direct it.

Cliney says, I think we should tell the judge.

And I said, you should tell the judge.

And that's when we did it, John.

Do you remember?

Yeah.

That was my first knowledge of the fact that there was a break-in, you know, with a picture and all that sort of thing.

Okay.

Dean didn't tell you anything in any of those long conversations that you had with him about this?

I don't know.

That was the, apparently, the essence of the Bittman plan.

But it was only, if it was, it's something that I don't recall.

Okay.

It's something I don't recall, and it's something that made no impression upon me.

And if anything, simply got my own investigation going.

You know what I mean?

Right.

He told me an awful lot of things.

Okay.

All right.

Well, I will wait on him.

He might have told me on the March 21st.

All right.

I don't know.

I don't know whether it might have been on that day or not.

I don't know.

In any event, the strong point here is that you have Peterson, Gray, and Silver all in possession of knowledge.

And they did nothing for a long, long time.

But it was brought to my attention by the Attorney General.

And I proceeded to, because as it turned out, I don't know what in the hell

particularly on that sort of thing.

You said you think that's what the black man was about?

Yes.

What made you, are you convinced of that?

That's what Dean told me.

Oh, and he came out to see you on what day?

On the 20th of March.

Oh, the 20th.

Yes, sir.

No, he can't see me the 20th.

And told you that that is what?

That Bittman was demanding money.

Oh, but you see, I didn't know about that.

You didn't.

I mean, you should have told me.

I mean, because I didn't.

Well, I don't know.

But I don't know whether.

But, uh.

You got that.

See, at that time, I was not reporting you on this case.

That's right.

And Dean was seeing you every day.

That's right.

And Dean had said that when he first came in with the whole, well, I just wanted to alert you to this.

Now, Krogh also asks whether he should resign now.

He and Young both feel very strongly that they did nothing wrong, that this was a critical national security problem, that the, uh, their agents exceeded their authority, that it was... That's part of the problem.

That's part of the problem, yeah.

But, uh, Brinegar is very antsy, and, uh,

Crowe would like to have your decision as to whether he should go now or stay now and go later or stay now and stay later or what.

And I think he should make an affidavit.

I think he should go.

I think he's going to get more heat by staying.

I think he should say that they seated their authority.

struck no knowledge to me.

I didn't know what the hell picture they were talking about, you know.

And it must be that Dean or Dean may have told me that.

The first time I saw Dean alone was the 27th of February.

27th of February.

He sure didn't tell me then, because we were not talking then about Bittman and all that much.

We didn't start talking about that, if you recall, John, until much, uh, then it was about the Texan service and all these other things.

And as a note, I was careful to say in my speech, I remember he said, in March, I learned certain things, you know what I mean?

You learn certain things, but as far as this information was concerned, it was only when the Attorney General brought it to my attention, you know, confirmed it, and we acted instantly, instantly.

I acted instantly.

I said, get the message out there to the Attorney General and Peterson.

I said, get it out.

Peterson was there and went blank each at the time.

And they said, we ought to get this out to the

prosecutor, and I said, by all means, because I think Dean is not a little over your head if you don't.

That was my issue, too.

And that's when I reported the next rate that we had sent it on out to the prosecutor.

I didn't approach it because I don't think we should be in a position where I didn't just say that because he should put it on the basis that it was a critical matter that we need

security thing, but he feels that he doesn't.

Just do it exactly.

going on national security albums.

I don't recall any conversation about that thing then, do you, between ourselves?

Not about what it was.

It was just that Dean was raising this, I think.

What time it was, I can't remember the date.

It was the Wednesday after the Sunday, the 15th, 16th, and the 18th of April.

Or was it the 18th of April?

After I'd begun the investigation.

We were well into it.

You talked to the Attorney General and the whole business.

After I'd begun my investigation.

No, this was April 18th.

This was after the Sunday night over here when you had Dean in and all that.

April 18th.

That was when we talked to them on the phone.

Right.

I'm almost sure that.

But my point is that the moment it was brought to me, I had tension that there was, you know, that the evidence indicated that that was the case.

I said, turn it over to the grand jury.

Oh, I'm telling you.

And Groves should say that.

I'm telling you.

But he should tell Richardson that.

I want Richardson to have no damn doubts about this whatever.

No.

I'll also tell him to resign.

I do want to tell you about one other thing that's happening.

I was visited yesterday by the U.S. Attorney from New York and that grand jury in the Southern District.

And he interrogated me for about an hour about Vesco.

And a great deal had come out about Don Jr. in the process.

I had to tell him about my meetings and what Don Jr. asked me to do about for Vesco and all this kind of stuff.

Um,

player, but me trying to do things.

But we never did.

Never did.

And the record is so clear.

I have a written memory coming out of the gazoo on that.

And I'm just so in such tight shape on that.

I just wish the Watergate thing were in as good shape right now.

I have memos all over the place.

I have to go up there on Tuesday.

I already didn't say anything because it'll be a secret trip.

But I'm going to testify to the grand jury there.

Bob and I go before the grand jury here tomorrow.

uh before the grand jury sir or an informal morning in the in the u.s so what was the label the 17th that we went on i believe that day 18th i believe she was friday the 13th that week and so sunday was the 15th

to go for the night.

He just went up for the night and invited Bob and me to come.

Oh, and that's after I made my mistake, right?

That I had taken over the...

Yes.

And I called Peterson because he said that...

I mean, what was it?

Remember?

He said Dean was blackmailing him or something to that effect.

No, not at that point.

I think what it was that they were going to call him on

And I think we decided that anything that I should, remember I said, if there's any conversation with the president, it's a privilege.

And I said, anything in the national security, it's a privilege.

Well, I just wanted to alert you that Richardson and Garvin are in this.

And that we'll do this, but it won't get their minds cleared instantly at this point.

I wanted to do anything except if I were resigning, like today, tomorrow, but what I mean is I want him to set their minds to rest and also to point out that this memorandum was, you know, based on that, that I think that we have said that.

You never told me about it.

I don't recall you ever telling me about these guys.

And I may be wrong.

See, there's the point.

I don't remember you ever telling me about this damn picture.

I have some recollection of that picture.

Maybe you did tell me about it sometime.

Well, but that, we don't need to worry about it.

Okay.

Well, I mainly wanted to alert you to this and tell you about Krogh's situation.

Would you do this?

Would you keep him in mind and whenever you think it's appropriate, have somebody give him a call and tell him that you want his resignation?

I'll tell him just to tread water until he hears from him.

Let me tell you.

You tell him that you can resign.

He would, with his mind, after I go into this labor management thing, getting hold of Krogh, I will say that it was the president himself who sent this material out there, as far as he was concerned.

And then he's going to bring it out today, right?

Well, Richardson was going to let him know what he wanted him to do, and that that's what Krogh would like to do.

Well, I think he should have listened.

Yeah, he'd like to get that trial back on the rails out there.

And the damn FBI distorted my statement to him so badly that that's a scandal all by itself.

The FBI started this morning?

Yes.

Unbelievable.

I dictated, just as the door closed as those two fellows left, I sat down and dictated a two-page memorandum of what was asked and what I responded.

And I went into the whole national security posture.

I told Bullock, I told him about our problems with the Bureau and how we were not getting results and how we took two fellows who were on the staff who had an investigative background and assigned them to make a check of Bellsprout on the West Coast.

It isn't the way it came out at all.

They left all the stuff about the Bureau out.

They left all the stuff about the National Security Committee out.

They made it sound like some kind of a, some kind of a second story heist.

Well, Wilson is after Ruckelshaus, and he wants to publish my memorandum.

And the trouble with it is, he says that it contains libelous material about, uh, uh, Ellsberg.

So, can't put that on.

But let's get the crowed.

I want the Krogh story, I want Krogh to clear it up before the president or anybody else inside of me, I think, if the president knew about this goddamn break-in.

He doesn't know that.

Krogh doesn't know that.

He doesn't know whether he did it or not.

But do you think Richardson thinks I did it?

Well, he says Richardson's running along that track.

Richardson's asking questions like, well, why didn't somebody at the White House turn this in?

Yeah, yeah.

If the President knew about this back in March, then why was it that he only investigated the water game?

He didn't also investigate this.

And Bud said those were disquieting kinds of questions.

Well, let's ask ourselves those questions.

Why didn't we?

The whole information was in the hands, all the information was in the hands, for good sake, of Peterson, already the prosecuting attorney.

as far as he was concerned.

Dean had repeatedly told Bud and me that Peterson knew all about this.

And not only that, he had pictures.

Peterson never told me about that.

Well, it may not be true, but it's what Dean told me.

Well, it probably is true.

Maybe true, maybe true.

Peterson just didn't feel that there was anything that was...

It was a picture, one of them was a picture of Gordon Liddy standing in front of the doctor's office with a doctor's name and an automobile with a license number.

And just a normal investigation, you know.

You'd have said to yourself, well, I wonder what Liddy was doing there.

It didn't indicate anything that it was that.

But Peterson never informed me that there was anything that he had to do.

What else did I do?

Yeah.

The minute it was brought up to my attention that there was a break-in, we informed the judge.

Will you be sure to let me know when you wait?

I'll be out of this in a half hour.

I'll tell you what I'll do.

I'll have Steve give you the message so that I don't interrupt you.

I'll just call Steve and say the message has been passed.

Let me tell you, if it's current and certain, I...

I do not want to have the indignity of having to explain to Elliot Richardson a thing of this sort.

I'd like to have at least the assurance that Krogh has told Richardson as of today.

I don't get that word back.

And if you would maybe say it on yourself that he has called and he says the information wasn't on the 15th of April, whatever the date was that Peterson came and that Attorney General informed of this.

The president directed it instantly.

When it turned up, they wanted an investigation.

But as far as the president was concerned, he had no knowledge.

There's one danger that I see.

Dean's whole theory is that he finally got in here and told you things.

And that they were news to you.

I never told you these terrible things.

So that's what started this whole thing moving.

Now, if he makes a catalog of the things that he says he told you, and this is in them, then Krogh is going to be standing short with Richardson.

If he calls him today and says, the first person who ever heard of this was on the 15th of, well, then Krogh should put it in terms that he was informed, put it exactly

that I would have Crowe tell them that maybe he should get into what, was he going to tell them that Peterson was aware of this?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

The Dean and Peterson were aware.

Is that a good thing to do?

Well, it's the only defense he has available to him.

Yes.

As it is mine.

Or anybody else around here to know.

But you didn't...

I knew there had been a break-in.

Yeah, but...

But you didn't know in December, November, that Peterson had been told that you were...

I knew before that, I believe.

Dean told me a long time ago.

That they found this picture?

Yes, sir.

See, they found the picture almost immediately.

The only thing I can say is that I had news of this and started investigating it.

And I knew that Peterson had it and so forth.

And as soon as we had it confirmed, that it was a break-in, we passed it on.

That has to be the case.

And shouldn't Krogh say about it that it was the first thing that the Attorney General brought up with his attention?

They did have this information.

And that the President himself directed his return order to the prosecutors as soon as it was brought up with his attention.

Well, I'll comment on that.

to do that, sir.

I sure will.

It's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard message.

You'll never understand like a rock in terms of the national security.

We were investigating these leaks and we do it again.

Crowe and Young want to make a real fight on that ground.

Yeah.

What the hell are they doing to him?

Well, see, their principles do a burden

are going to come out.

I don't know what other things there were.

We don't know that there were any wiretapping by these clowns.

Young tells me flatly there was none.

Yeah.

At least as far as he knows.

What the hell did they do?

What did we do?

What did the British do?

Well, they did all kinds of stuff.

They did analysis.

They worked up analyses of the Pentagon Papers.

They did all sorts of stuff.

I see.

This was the only thing.

This strange, strange church in California.

Well, the trip was all right.

It's what they did afterwards.

The thought of the trip was that they were going to go out and gather everybody.

It's follow-up to the FBI report.

And so we didn't know what we had right at that time.

Just didn't know what this was.

that the first knowledge that I have was that.

I know the first knowledge that I had had to be couldn't have been before the first of March or something like that.

It couldn't have been because I never talked to, Dean never told me anything about that phase of the thing.

But it's very likely that when he did tell me about it, it was the 21st, the day he came in about everything else.

And it was then that I think I did the proper thing.

We went after the damn thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it was right after that, for instance, that you took Dean out of things.

That's right.

But we weren't keeping from anybody because Dean, Dean had, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

There was nothing we could impart for them, but we had to go to the bottom of this lake.

Thank you, John.

All right, sir.

As far as he was concerned, the president himself sent this material out there

Well, Richardson was going to let him know what he wanted him to do.

And then he's going to bring it out to David, right?

Well, Richardson was going to let him know what he wanted him to do, that that's what Krogh would like to do.

Well, I think he should have let him do it.

What do you think?

Yeah, he'd like to get that trial back on the rails out there.

And...

It's the damn FBI who started my statement to him so badly that I'll go back on the rails out there.

And it's the damn FBI who started my statement to him so badly that that's a scandal all by itself.

So even the FBI started a story?

Yes.

Unbelievable.

That's a scandal all by itself.

So even the FBI started a story?

Yes.

Unbelievable.

I sat down and dictated a two-page memorandum.

I dictated, just as the door closed as those two fellows left, I sat down and dictated a two-page of what was asked memorandum, of what was asked and what I responded.

And I went into the whole national security posture.

I told Bullock and told him about our problems with it.

I told Bullock and told him about our problems with the Bureau and

how we were not getting results, and how we took two fellows who were on the staff who had investigative background, and staff who had investigative background, and assigned them to make a check of L-spray on the West Coast.

This is the way it came out.

Assigned them to make a check of L-spray on the West Coast.

This is the way it came out on Antelope.

On Antelope.

They left all the stuff about the national security meeting out.

They left all the stuff about the National Security Committee out.

They made it sound like some kind of a second story heist.

Second story heist.

Well, Wilson, well, Wilson is, is after Ruckelshaus, and he wants to publish my, after Ruckelshaus, and he wants to publish my memorandum.

And the trouble with it is, he says that it contains libelous material.

And the trouble with it is, he says that it contains libelous material about, uh, uh, about, uh, Elzner.

Elzner.

So, you can't put that.

But let's get the Krogh.

I want the Krogh story.

But let's get the Krogh.

I want the Krogh story.

I want the Krogh to be cleared of that before the presidents or anybody else gets on a knee.

I think if the president knew about this, God damn, break it.

John, if the president knew about this, God damn, break it.

John, I don't know.

He doesn't know that.

He doesn't know what he did or not.

But we think Richardson thinks I did.

Well, he says Richardson's running along that track.

Richardson's asking questions like, well, why didn't somebody at the White House turn this in?

If the president knew about this back in March, why wasn't that he only investigated the water game?

He didn't also investigate this.

Let's ask ourselves those questions.

Why didn't we?

The whole information was in the hands.

The information was in the hands.

All of the information was in the hands.

All of the information was in the hands, Provost would say, of Peterson, already the prosecutor, as far as he was concerned.

of Peterson already in the prosecution as far as he was concerned.

Dean had repeatedly told Bud and me that Peterson knew all the legends.

And not only that, he had the pictures.

He had the pictures.

And not only that, I had pictures.

Peterson never told me about that.

Well, it may not be true, but it's what Dean told me.

Well, it probably is true.

It may be true, but it probably is true.

It was a picture, one of them was a picture of Gordon Liddy.

One of them was a picture of Gordon Liddy standing in front of the doctor's office with a doctor's name.

Standing in front of the doctor's office with an automobile with a doctor's name and an automobile license number with a license number.

It was a normal investigation, you know.

You would have said to yourself, well, it was a normal investigation, you know.

You would have said to yourself, well, I wonder what Lydia was doing there.

But Peterson never informed me that there was anything.

What else could I do?

The minute it was brought to my attention that there was a break-in,

We inform the judge.

The minute it was brought to my attention that there was a break-in, we inform the judge.

The judge.

Okay.

Will you be sure that he gets that in?

The judge.

Okay.

Will you be sure that he gets that in?

I sure will.

Let me know when you wait.

I'll have Steve give you the message.

I'll have Steve give you the message so that I don't interrupt you.

I'll just call Steve and say the message has been passed.

Let me try to call Steve and say the message has been passed.

It's current concern I have is if I do not want to have the

indignity of having to, let me tell you the current concern I have is that I do not want to have the indignity of having to explain to Elliot Richardson a thing of this sort.

I mean to Elliot Richardson a thing of this sort.

I'd like to have at least the, I'd like to have at least the assurance that, proerence that

Crowe has told Richardson as of today.

I went back to Richardson as of today.

I went back to Richardson.

And if you would, maybe say it on yourself, but he has called it.

And he says the information wasn't on the 15th of April, whatever the date was that Peterson came and

and the Attorney General informed us, and the President directed it instantly, when it turned up in the Watergate investigation, that as far as the President was concerned, he had no knowledge.

There's one danger, and I say it at that speed,

Dean's cold theory is that he finally got in here and told you, as far as the president was concerned, he had no knowledge.

There's one danger about it.

Dean's cold things.

And that they were news to you.

The theory is that he finally got in here and told you things.

I never told you these terrible things.

And that... And...

So that they were news to you.

That's what started this whole thing moving.

Now, if he makes a catalog of the things that he says he told you, he told you these terrible things.

So this is it.

That's what started this whole thing moving.

Now, then Krogi's going to be standing short with Richardson.

If he makes a catalog of the things that he says he told you,

He calls him today, and this is him.

Says the first person who ever heard of this was on the 15th of May.

Well, then.

Then Krogi's going to be standing.

So Krogi should put it in terms of.

With Richardson.

That he was.

He calls him today and says.

To inform.

Put it exactly what it was.

Don't.

The first person who ever heard of it.

I don't.

Crowe should put it in terms of, maybe he should get into what, was he going to tell them that he was involved, Peterson was aware of this?

Yes.

Put it exactly what it was.

Don't have, I don't think that I would have Crowe tell them that Dean Peterson were aware of it.

Dean Peterson were aware of it.

Maybe he should get into what, was he going to tell them?

Well, it's the only Dean in Peterson we're aware of.

Dean in Peterson we're aware of.

Well, it's the only defense he has available to him.

Yes.

As it is mine.

The defense he has available to him.

Yes.

This is mine.

Or anybody else around here.

But you didn't...

Yeah, but...

But you didn't...

Yeah, but...

But you didn't know in December, November, that Peterson had been told...

I knew before that, please.

If you didn't know in December or November that Peterson had been told that you were...

I knew before that, please.

Dean told me a long time ago.

The PD said that they found this picture.

Yes, sir.

The PD said that they found this picture.

Yes, sir.

See, they found... See, they found the picture almost immediately.

A picture almost immediately.

The only thing I can say is that I had news of this and started investigating.

And I knew that they were investigating.

They did have this information.

And that the president himself directed his return order to the prosecutor.

That the president himself directed his return order to the prosecutor to suspend his imprisonment by not telling them.

By not telling them.

Could you do that?

You'll never stand a rock

Crowley Young is going to make a real fight with us on that ground.

Yeah.

What the hell are they doing to him?

Well, see, the hell, what are they doing to him?

Well, see, their principles do burglary.

It is burglary.

But I ain't burglary.

The other thing is, I don't think they're going to come out.

They did all kinds of stuff

They did analysis.

They worked up analyses of the Pentagon Papers.

I see.

This was the only thing.

It was this strange, strange turkey convoy.

Turkey convoy.

The trick was that they were going to go out and gather it, but hey, it's follow-up to the FBI report.

But hey, it's follow-up to the FBI report.

And so we didn't know what we had right at that time.

Just didn't know what this was.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right in not indicating that the...

Lastly, that's the first knowledge that I have was that I know the person I have was that I know the first colleague that I had had to be, he couldn't have been before the first march or something like that.

I couldn't have been because I never talked to him.

He never told me anything about that phase of the thing.

But it's very likely that when he did tell me about it, it was a funny version.

The day he came in about it was a funny version.

The day he came in about the, about everything else.

About the, about everything else.

And it was then that I...

And it was then, if I did the proper thing, we went after the damn thing.

Yep, yep.

If I did the proper thing, we went after the damn thing.

Yep, yep.

Well, it was right after that, for instance, that you took Dean out of thanks.

That's right.

Well, we weren't keeping...

Right after that, for instance, that you took Dean out of thanks.

That's right.

Well, we weren't keeping from anybody because Dean had the...

That's a very good point.

I think that's a point that's stressed with LNP of a racist.

That we were given to understand that.

I wish you the best.

You've got a great wife.