Conversation 912-002

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I don't think they will.

Garment said that they went out of their way to say, now look, and this is where I want to press Lynn again today.

Lynn said that they went out of their way three times in a conversation.

We wanted to talk to Ron privately, totally privately, and Jared for the sole purpose of determining what Dean said in terms of guidance.

Strictly limited to that point.

That there's no other reason, and he said they went on and on and on and out of their way to state that.

So I think we should do it.

I do.

Be very formal, come in.

Well, there comes the charge, okay.

Assuming that that's the charge he was made.

Assuming he has a document he had written, a campaign of 43 figures and the like.

Which he recounts.

about the conversations we've had.

Well, we went over the problems of first-detection privilege.

Now, the question, if that was blackmail, we were, well, that's another good point to just remember, that the point was that that was blackmail.

Excuse me.

We've had that before.

Excuse me.

We've got to really smack it where it wants to throw.

You know, maybe he ain't making the packages in the office the week before.

You don't have to handle that.

Mr. President, the way I know it, Dean, let me just say, so, excuse me, let me figure out some words.

Figuring some words.

Let him say, I walked into the President's office and

said to the president, Mr. President, you are totally aware, could she, sir, about the money we've been paying to the defendants.

We need more money, if not, they're gonna blow.

And he did this in January or February.

Yeah, never did.

Okay, I'm saying, you said, figure the worst.

Did it in March, did it some other time.

Or during the course of the period that he was working on this, at some point he said, you know, something to you, that in the context of today,

The best way to deal with John Dean is someday, you don't rush right out and deal with Dean.

Whenever it is, two months from now, whenever this develops, the President of the United States can look directly into the camera or wherever in the press conference or out here in the press room and say, ladies and gentlemen, we make two points.

Know where it is going wrong.

The third point is I had a man on my staff who was my counsel and who was a trusted aide.

And in the course of that, I talked freely with him, not about illegality, not about wrongdoing.

That man has taken much of what I said in the sanctity and the privileged sanctity of the Oval Office and attempted to use that for his own self-service of serving means in order to discredit the presence of the United States.

that will not be done, that cannot be done.

I reject everything which he states to place.

In terms of them conjuring, and that will just destroy me now.

That simple statement.

And I think if we allow him to, if he sees us being drawn in by constant responses, that's when they're going to keep turning and turning the wheel.

Now, there are no questions about it.

I've gone over this last night, this morning, with Diane, who's on my staff, who gets a lot of the guidance, and Jerry Warren.

In the Newsweek article, for example, Dean says he was not aware of the, was not asked to conduct an investigation.

On two occasions, Jerry said, Dean was lying to me, because he said, on two occasions, he said that John Ehrman told him that the President wanted him to get

Look into this immediately.

On occasion after occasion.

Oh, Christ, yes, yes.

Good, good.

We all, we all still need to read your destination.

That's what I'm interested for.

And later, I said, I thank you for, for carrying such a big load, or whatever it was.

Oh, no, he's, I think Dane, Dane is going to overstep himself.

He's, he's going to lie too much here.

Even a little thing.

So Jack Anderson pointed out, was he in the office when I got rid of the red tape?

Hell no, he wasn't in the office until September the 15th.

All of them wasn't even in the office until September the 15th.

Disgusting.

Who was the hell was I to give it to the government?

And I didn't do all the bad things for real people.

Oh yeah, you know, it wasn't for a lot of the time that we started meeting on the 27th of February, we were talking about executive privilege, and we were talking also about deans, and Dick Marlowe recalls versions about deans fighting with, with, uh, Ed Gray, and, uh, you know, that, uh, uh,

Thanks for trying to be defending me.

I was pointing out the look of you.

I said you were conducting an investigation for the White House.

You had to have these things.

Yeah, the FBI files.

That's what I said.

I said, that's your justification, John.

So what the hell, if he wasn't conducting the investigation, why did he get the FBI files?

Why did he sit in on the conversations of the White House staff?

That was the purpose of it.

Uh, he's had a conversation with the FBI files.

He, uh... Well, let's get ready for him when he cracks.

I don't know why he would flip out the news when he cracked, to begin with.

Do you think it's part of his strategy of looking out little by little, and so forth and so on?

I think we probably win this whole shot there.

Well, why didn't he use the bedroom?

Because he knows that nothing happened out of the bedroom.

Not here.

But he knows that Mitchell indicated awareness.

Well, then that's his problem.

That's Dean's problem, see?

He's not gonna...

He's not gonna put something out that's going to discredit him.

That's all.

Because it shows absolutely, total, absolute, total awareness of an effort to obstruct justice on his part.

Paul was an early member in your office.

When Mitchell asked what we, what, what...

It was on the 22nd.

After Dean had reported a main vote.

He says, what's happened on that Goodman thing?

And Dean expresses, I told you, apparently, well, surprise, or...

Mitchell said, well, I guess it's taken care of.

And Dean probably later told me, I mean, unless he had a phone.

Everybody knew that this wasn't a sin.

But that was an enigmatic remark, too.

I don't know whether it's taken care of or not.

I would gather it had not been.

But that involves Dean deeply in the whole business of that.

Let's figure that he'll throw that.

But his new sleep thing, I think, was his first job.

The next one, because the president was involved.

God damn it, I don't know how he did it.

He really, you were talking to him, Ron.

He can't really feel that, can he?

He expressed no bitterness when I talked to him.

Well, he was bitter, I think, certainly, about my statement about knowing him.

Didn't express that.

He was dealing back at that time, because earlier, as I said, Michael Wood, don't blame John.

He didn't want to be the guy, you know, he didn't, you know, put him on bars.

He realizes losses when it starts.

I mean, this trial is going to be one hell of a tough trial for the prosecution.

You know, they've got to prove intent.

It's going to be very hard for the crew.

It might even be hard for the crew, I'm sure.

I don't think so.

The recruiters, no.

But Dainey, he doesn't have any.

I don't know whether they can get him on the conspiracy thing or not.

It may be that he doesn't want to mention the Bidman thing at this point.

We've got to figure that if he has good lawyers, but he's trying to draw, draw us out.

So we've got to be very careful on the statement.

In other words, if he's trying to draw us out, don't.

Then at some point, and this goes back to all of these environments and so forth, then he could come out with proof.

Now, at this point, contrary to something that we said, and then he's got us in the public

Not seriously, but he's got a very good public giving, public relations coup there.

That's right.

And he proves that we lied.

That's right.

And therefore, what you said about the clemency was totally true.

Right.

And we never authorized protection.

Right.

And he knows that actually.

Well, the point is that Dean knows them.

He knows them better than anybody else does.

Where he lied, where he said Erlichman, he saw Erlichman coming to my office and asked me, and then he came back.

Erlichman never came back.

Never discussed it.

Which Erlichman will say.

Even if Erlichman didn't say that?

Well, I never offered it.

No, of course not.

But the point of it is, I'm not...

Anyone...

who walks out of this office and says to someone else, the president told me to do this.

You can't sustain that.

The other point that he tried to say, he was trying to suck us out on was the one about the September 15th meeting.

That never occurred, but we haven't denied it.

No.

I just wouldn't bother.

I know it never occurred, but that's been, that's just a good one to hold for the future, to get ahead of his credibility.

And you say that he did not, and now the date he resigned, you said it's in the spring, and he submitted his resignation, or I asked for his resignation.

Yeah, right.

In the spring, which would have been in April.

Yeah, the spring.

Actually, the date was April 16th.

April 15th.

And I had that money with me.

That's what it was.

And we did not take it to the reading.

We still took it.

Well, one last thing, on this little rumble, I want to be sure that you don't... Who is creating the rumble about the testimony of the New York Times?

Right.

About the fact that I directed Peterson.

What are they saying?

Well, basically, the thrust of it is that I delayed, that there was a delay.

that there was a delay in presenting the affidavit because of national security considerations.

Now, Jim Weehart of the New York Daily News talked to the Justice Department, and the Justice Department just cut ribs and holes in a New York Times story.

And they're moving it from over there.

And that's what I'm inclined to think.

Let's keep it over there.

Because their ass is out there on that one.

Sure.

So let's leave it right there.

Just leave it alone.

And then there's a denial in this story and everything else on it.

OK. What I thought I'd ask, hey.

Yes, sir.

Well, let's get ready for it.

Let's get cracks.

I didn't know before why he would flip up and do the cracks.

You think it's part of your strategy?

I don't know why he is.

Little by little, so forth.

You think it's part of your strategy of the shot player?

Little by little, so forth, so on.

Why didn't you use it then?

Because he knows that nothing happened out of the bitumen.

Now, I think he probably went this whole shot there.

Not here.

Why did he use the bitumen?

Because he knows that nothing happened out of the bitumen.

Not here.

Well, then that's his problem.

That's Dean's problem, sir.

Then that's his problem.

That's Dean's problem.

He's not going to put something out that's going to discredit him.

Why?

Because it shows.

Why?

Absolutely because it shows total, absolute, total awareness.

Absolutely total.

I'm an advocate of absolute total justice.

Yeah.

On his part.

Hold on.

I'm an advocate of total justice.

Yeah.

On his part.

Hold on.

Yeah.

On his part.

Hold on.

Yeah.

On his part.

After me, before you meet me, is what's happened on that fifth day.

And Dean expresses, as I told you, apparently, and Dean expresses, as I told you, apparently, well, surprise, or surprise, or, and Mitchell said, well, I guess it's taken care of.

And Mitchell said, well, I guess it's taken care of.

And Dean, probably Dean, probably later told, nobody had told me, later told, nobody had told me, there's going to be an election in the fall.

There's going to be an election in the fall.

Everybody knew that that was what was said.

But that was an enigmatic remark.

That was an enigmatic remark, too.

But that involves being deeply involved, being deeply in the, in the, in the whole, uh, in the, in the, in the whole, uh, in the whole business, in the whole business of that enchantment, of that enchantment.

Let's figure that you'll throw that.

But his new sweet thing, I think, was his first job.

He expressed no bitterness when I talked to him.

He didn't express it.

He was kneeling back at that time.

You realize it's lost.

It's going to be a very hard thing to prove.

It might even be hard for them to run with you.

I don't know.

I don't know whether they get him on the conspiracy thing or not.

It may be that he doesn't want to mention it.

He doesn't want to mention it at this point.

You've got to figure that if he has good lawyers, but he's kind of trying to draw lawyers, but he's kind of trying to draw, draw us out, draw us out, why don't we've got to be virgins to draw us out?

Why don't we've got to be virgins for him to stay with us?

In other words, if he's trying to draw us out, don't stay with us.

At some point, and this goes back to all of these environments and so forth, then he could come out with proof.

Now, at this point, then he could come out with proof.

Now, at this point, contrary to something that we said, and then he's got us in the public, and then we said, and then he's got us in the public.

I'm not sure, but he's had a very good public, I'm not sure, but he's had a very good public giving, public giving, public relations coup, relations coup there.

That's right.

In deep curves, we lie.

That's right.

In deep curves, we lie.

And therefore, I, That's right.

What you said about, therefore, what you said about, the, the, the,

Clemency.

Was it totally true?

Right.

And we use, he's never authorized.

Right.

And we use, he's never authorized.

Right.

Protection.

Right.

Protection.

Right.

And Dean knows that actually.

Well, the point is, the dean knows them.

He knows them better than anybody else does.

Where he lied, where he said early, he saw early when coming to my office and asked me, he knows them better than anybody else does.

Where he lied, where he said early, he saw early when coming to my office and asked me, and then he came back, and then he came back.

Early, but never came back.

Never discussed it.

What's early supposed to say?

Never discussed it.

Even if Erlichman didn't.

Even if Erlichman didn't say that.

He didn't.

Well, I didn't say that.

No, of course not.

Well, I don't know.

The point of it is, I'm not... No, of course not.

The point of it is, I'm not...

Anyone, anyone who walks out of this office, who walks out of this office and says,

To someone else, President Polk says, to someone else, President Polk needed to do this.

He needed to do this.

You can't sustain that.

The other point that he tried to, he was trying to suck us out.

He was trying to suck us out on September 15th meeting.

That never occurred.

I know.

And you say, and you say that he did not, and no, the date he resigned, you said that in the spring, and he submitted, he did not, and no, the date he resigned, you said that in his resignation, or I asked for his resignation, in the spring, and he submitted his resignation, or I asked for his resignation, yeah, right, in, right, in, in the spring, which would have been in April, yeah, the spring, actually, the date was April, the spring, which would have been in April, yeah, April 16th, April 15th, the spring, actually, the date was April 16th, April 15th,

And I had that Monday morning.

That's when it was.

And we did not.

Well, thank you for the reading.

Well, honestly, I just want to be sure that you don't rumble on that.

Who is creating, I want to be sure that you don't rumble about the testimony.

Who is creating the rumble about the testimony of the New York Times?

The New York Times.

And on the back of I, the back of I directed Peterson.

What do they say next?

Well, basically, basically the thrust of it is that there was a delay, that there was a delay, that there was a delay, that there was a delay.

that there was a delay in presenting the affidavit because of national security considerations.

Now, presenting the affidavit, Jim Weehart, because of national security considerations, New York Daily News talked to the Justice Department.

Now, Jim Weehart at the New York Daily News Department and the Justice Department just cut ribbons and holes in a New York Times story, talked to the Justice Department, and the Justice Department

cut ribs and holes in a New York Times story.

Good.

That's what I'm inclined to think.

Keep it over there.

Let's keep it over there.

Because they, they are there.

And that's what I'm inclined to think.

Keep their asses out there or not.

Sure.

And let's keep it over there.

Because there's a denial in the state.

They are there.

Their asses out there or not.

And then there's a denial in the story of the hangout song.

Okay.

Story of the hangout song.

Okay.

What?

Thought I had hate in the answer.

Do you see the Harris poll?

No.

The Harris did a poll from May the 1st to May the 3rd.

And in the course of that, they got in the shit.

The president resigned or stepped down.

People opposed it 77 to 13.

Also, it pointed out that there is a strong undercurrent in the country to give the president, you know, a very definite benefit of the doubt in the whole matter.

And that, you know, there's three and a half years to go, and there's a lot to be done, feeling, when it comes through.

So we have some understanding.

Well, there's no big, you know, push for that.

But I thought this was interesting because despite the use of the word, I think what it shows is what we discussed in Florida.

I think so, yes.

you know what i mean is when i said you talk about knowledge

Good God.

Knowledge is something, Ron, that I really can't honestly say because I read the newspapers, you know what I mean?

Right.

That's what I do.

I read the newspapers.

I read reports.

I read what McCord said.

I have, in other words, I have knowledge.

I may have had enough proof.

Right.

Those, what we're really talking about is... Well, that's what, that's the way I have to read.

Knowledge and proof.

that as I had followed this case, obviously I had followed this case, but until I began with the investigation, the facts, I had followed the facts.

In other words, participate.

I'll be perfectly honest.

For example, I didn't participate.

I had no knowledge of the goddamn break-ins when they occurred, that's for sure.

I had no knowledge of the goddamn cover-in.

No, no.

No participation.

authorization of knowledge about that cover-up.

So, uh, well, I read about it.

I mean, what, not the, what's the cover-up until I began my own investigation.

And what was the other thing at the end?

Well, the, uh, I mean, in the statement?

No, no, no.

They asked about the knowledge of what?

The, uh, the security activity.

No, no, no, no.

They just asked Jerry whether or not the... No.

No protestant, no... That's right, that's right.

I wasn't running, I wasn't in the campaign, frankly.

That was it.

That was an honest-to-God truth, as you know.

Chapin never told me about security.

All of them never told me about security.

I didn't know about his goddamn tricks.

No, sir.

I was a mile away from campaign tactics, except for positions.

Sure.

Well, I think if they ask me, there are two ways to answer that question.

But I want to be sure that we don't appear to be

the president well there are two two ways to do it gentlemen the president yes it was carefully the use of the word participated was drawn because the president did not want to make a statement which would imply prejudgment in other words if you would have said you were not aware that would suggest that

there was or that you had knowledge of a cover-up in the Anastasia.

That's right.

To draw a judgment like that.

That's right.

That's important.

That's right.

The word participated in the use because I am not going to say the cover-up is alleged.

In other words, that has to be established.

Right.

Because...

Now then, to go on to say, gentlemen, I'm not going to start

Expanding on a statement which we issued here in relation to this, obviously not having participated also means not having authorized, not having been aware of an intent to cover up.

Not aware, no awareness, whatever.

Intent to cover up.

That's right.

I was.

No, on March 21st, I'm sure.

Dean alleged, he said, on, I don't remember, go here.

On the, blow the whistle for him, and see if he thinks, unless he got $100,000, unless he got $120,000.

I'm a little worried about postmarking on the first.

Yeah.

On the ground, we investigated the trip.

Yeah.

Before, uh, you could say, you could say before he began his own presentation.

Yeah.

Okay, on Krogh, uh, I guess it kind of worked out with his estimation and so forth.

Krogh said, and he was simply asked, you should not back off again, did the president.

Yes, and I'd say not only there, but we have very, we have at least, for example, on the Indian-Pakistan business, we have national security and the president gives instructions to everybody.

He says, I have received instructions, everybody else to take all of it.

possible steps to flood those lakes to find a funnel.

I've ordered directly to the Cabinet to do so.

I've directed the Security Council to do so.

But everybody in the administration has had as the first priority to avoid lakes in national security matters, in the national security area.

I don't think that's a problem with the fact that Kroger says that the President personally directed it.

He didn't, because he didn't say that I directed it.

He said, God damn it, fuck up the funnel.

One other point that I'd like to raise, if I could,

I acknowledge the fact that there was a burglary, you know, not a burglary, but, you know, as I told you, my recollection is not clear.

I just don't remember when I heard it.

I don't.

When you were informed?

On the Watergate.

Oh, at the Elsinore burglary.

Exactly.

And I think that was important.

I think it was important.

March 21st could have been shortly before.

You know what I mean?

I just dug that.

Well, it was in that period, and that's fine.

That was a period where...

I was looking back at the investigation, but I want to be sure.

You see, John Irwin, I think, really, in a way, will cover his own address to a certain extent.

When I told him, I said, John, I did not recall any of the things you did.

But I think he's talking about two different things.

I was aware that Krogh was conducting an operation.

I had no awareness, whatever, of going on to Los Angeles to look into the goddamn wagon of a, you know, a, uh... Psychiatrist.

...for a price, you know.

But, uh, I didn't... Well, Krogh's already handled that.

What did he say on that?

He just said he did.

That was an action taken on his own.

What did he say?

They may ask you, was the president aware?

No.

When did he come for it?

I can't be specific, Chuck.

As you know, he's been conducting the very first investigation.

Well, as you know, the president directed the information when it was proved.

Again, it was a subject, you know, so it was proved that he directed it.

Did Mr. Hurley have been walking?

That's the key point.

I don't know.

The president, I don't know.

I don't know.

It would be perfectly very lucky if he didn't.

He informed you?

He did not.

Oh, he did not?

No, no, no.

Of course not.

Well, I don't know what the hell he's going to say.

You see, there is Burlington's, as you pointed out to him on the helicopter around, Burlington's weakness, and in his own presentation, his judgment, was that he

to murder, to burglary, to burglarize that place, not only to reprimand, but to fire their asses.

And if I knew, then of course that makes it totally bad.

Is it, don't you think you had better check with Burlington and say that our position here is that I did not murder this, I mean, I did not murder the burglary.

until I began my investigation.

Or do you think you should?

Maybe not.

God, did you ever ever expect I'd go there and say the President knew of this?

Do you think he did?

No, he didn't do that.

Knew of the burglary?

Yeah, he informed me of the burglary.

Well, I'm sure he did.

I don't think... See, the point is, you know, you see how John is now.

He's in a hell of a mind.

It looks like he was keeping something from me.

He should have told me.

You know, everybody that tried to defend himself.

Could you talk to Bob about the idea?

I could say, now look, there's one thing that I have no independent recollection of.

John never taught me about this goddamn S&P.

I learned about it when we got started on the investigation.

Over the course of our investigation in March, when I heard about the picture,

Which, incidentally, we did not have a boy on the stand, besides you and that Senator.

The Justice Department had this information.

And I authorized the Senate Justice Department, said that it had approved, you know, he might have to come in and testify.

And as soon as they had approved it, it might, even the picture and everything else, they didn't have it approved, you see, because Crowe had not told them.

And it was then that Kleinish and Peterson came in and said, we've got to get this out to the judge.

And I said, send it to the judge.

My record's pretty good on that one.

Yeah, there's a little bit of a rumbling this morning on that one in terms of the suggestion that you had for a period or someone on your behalf had attempted to

prevent that disclosure to the court.

Now, that's not true.

Not true.

Absolutely not.

Kleinmeets and Peterson came to you on the 15th, as I recall.

They did.

But they didn't have the disclosure.

Well, you never did say to Peterson, did you, not to get into the national security area, not to provide the material to the Ellsberg trial?

No, sir.

The only thing I said to him was this.

I said that, I said to Peterson, I don't know how the wrong thing is, but I did say to Peterson, on occasion, on the phone, I said to him, at that point, do you question on, you cannot get into the national security matters.

I said, that is correct.

I put it that way.

Right.

Do you question?

I said nothing about the Ellsberg trial.

Nothing, whatever.

I said nothing about the

When they talk about the Romney, you mean somebody who's confused?

No, there are distorted reports out this morning suggesting it's not a problem.

I don't even think it's worth addressing.

It's just one of those confused things.

That the Krogh was... No, no, not related to Dean at all.

Not related to the illegality at all.

It's just one of these silly things that there was a delay in presenting the material to Matt Byrd

to the Medford Court, to the Old Perth Court.

Now, people... Because of the national security.

That's very possible that that is true because of...

But I didn't know.

The moment they came to me, the moment they came to me and said we should present the report, I said I absolutely agree.

But they didn't have the, you know...

They had been investigating for 10 days at that time.

they didn't know whether it was

When I talked to Pearson on the phone that night, and they, this was the 16th, I said, as you know, I said, as you have already exposed, Hunt wasn't in the White House.

In some national security investigations, I did not mention elsewhere, did not mention, I don't know when, but I don't know.

Yeah, yes, I did.

In some national security investigations.

And I said, as far as those investigations are concerned,

I said, and then he asked me, well, was any of the information that was obtained through such investigations ever turned over to the people?

Did it get into the hands of prosecutors?

And I said, no.

I said, no.

I said, the investigation produced no results.

Now there, there is maybe where the things got missing.

Now you see, that explains why justice at that point did not tell the jury, look, Connett done this.

Because?

Did it produce no results?

Well, what makes it wrong, Ron, is to have a date, as I understand the law.

What will, what will, what will poison a case?

is if you get illegal evidence, and it's used, if you know what I mean.

In this case, they didn't get any illegal evidence.

It was used, if you can see my point.

And that's why they broke into the case.

They could drop the case right away, and right away, it was never been used.

So in this case, I said that if I was investigating, I said he would mend it.

Because I knew then, I knew then, at that time, April 15th, I knew that Elder McConnell had been involved.

And this probably goes back to the March period.

And Hunter had been involved.

No, no, no, I didn't think Hunter had been involved.

That had been going on all the time.

I mean, we'd known that for months around here.

I said, he was investigating in that stuff.

And I said, he conducted some investigations in the elevator.

No information.

Just leave it loose enough so that it says yes at the end.

I don't know.

Maybe your judgment is better than mine.

I just think we stay clear of that as much as you can.

But don't get us in a position where I'm lying about it.

No, I have nothing to lie about either.

That's the real tragedy of the day.

But I recall that one conversation that we used on the 15th.

Hillary sent a cable.

The Soviets want to announce the summit on Saturday.

All right.

And I don't mention it to you.

It's a good day to do it.

But I'm going to play it on Sunday.

From there?

No, we'll do it on Sunday.

It's quite a coordinated announcement.

this thing dominates the news what is the question

Period.

Finish.

They don't list the question.

They simply state flatly that 77 to 13% of the majority of the American people do not take president next in chiefly time.

And then they go on to say something about the amount of people who are wanted over with.

Well, then they're

Then they go on to say that the people endorse the idea of a special prosecutor.

That's already been done.

59% to 31% of the majority agree with the statement that President Nixon still has most of the second term in the White House to go.

So he should be given the benefit of the doubt in the Watergate buggy.

I think the figures, if they show anything but a trend, certainly show that the American people will support the bold type action that you're contemplating taking.

I think we can take it, and I think we should.

And I don't think, if we can't do it by Thursday, I think we should wait until Monday.

I talked to Al last night, and... After you talked to Rodgers?

No, I haven't talked to him since he talked to Rodgers.

But on the plane last night, just before we got in, we cannot, in the move you make, simply make moves of shuffling people internally.

Because as I told Al, my view of that is that that in itself is an act where he suggests that the president...

you know, can't go out.

And, of course, the...

But you see, you take the Rogers.

God, what do you mean, take the Rogers?

The Secretary of State resigns in order to handle this thing.

Well, I agree with your point on that.

God, I just think I don't get it.

Then, going down, like, oh, what do you mean by oh?

Well, I'm talking...

Like Gallo's idea, just I don't know the names yet, but for example, the Lynn Colofano play.

I still like the Kissinger estate thing because I know.

But I understand why that can't be done.

That gets a certain spark going.

Probably doesn't spark.

It just seems like we're, the Secretary of State resigns.

No, but the Secretary of State is considered to be such a... Well, Rogers would maybe go to the...

the outside thing maybe rogers could be a special consultant or something or maybe that's not part of the play but uh connelly was certainly a part of it well connelly still was a part of it that special consultant yeah so that's pretty good that's pretty good that's okay but what i'm talking about is is uh you know the other the other moves in terms of the domestic council and so forth well

I would still go ahead with what we've got.

I wouldn't do it all on one fell.

Let me put it this way.

I'd like to get the defense.

I don't like it to appear that we're just mired down.

Yeah, that's true.

And, for example, if we can get Slushing to remove the CIA guy, we'll set up a move.

Now, the idea of whether or not we bring the land over and Oglebay in, does that seem to you to be a good idea?

Yeah, it's a good move.

Oglebay

It's hard for me to assess his real, uh, uh, strengths.

A lot of work with Alvin this morning, uh, and we'll talk to you about it some more.

The common thing is, well, you see, he just cannot, well, frankly, he won't, he won't do creation.

He would do sin.

He would, he would, hell yes, but he can't do that.

Well, if you do that, Ron, you'll lose it.

You'll lose it.

I can't do that.

He is just your... Henry.

Henry has got to be the foreign policy guy.

And, Ron, those things are more important than even this move.

Yes, sir.

Even this old move is not going to pull us out of this rut too fast.

I wish it would.

But I'll talk to him a little about it.

What other news things do you think I should be aware of?

Well, I think you're pretty well hooked on what we've discussed so far.

The Lebanon thing is still on history, but there's nothing to worry about on that.

The Lombardi, the US man in Mexico who was being killed, was released late last night.

Well, he's .

The river convoy finally reached on him.

first one in the last two weeks.

The North Vietnamese have invited families of some Americans who died in North Vietnamese to visit their graves.

That's a part of the ongoing thing there.

The Richardson special prosecutor got a good flag.

Denial, incidentally.

Yeah, they played it.

They were very carefully phrased.

Maybe that doesn't make any difference.

You know, I'm cranking around about whatever.

You mean very forthright, so then I'm not going to go into that.

I wouldn't try to fancy Dan around.

No, I'm not.

I'm going to quit.

Yesterday, when the president had no knowledge of this thing, he had no participation.

He's trying to clean it up.

Let's give him a chance.

Yeah.

He had no knowledge.

He had no knowledge of the innocent.

He had hope.

And he had no justification.

And he followed that.

You see, your point about the cover-up is that the cover-up assumes that there was a cover-up.

Right, sir.

And that immediately conveys to Mitchell and everybody in the community that they've got that thing.

It's an alleged cover-up.

My line is very clear.

I'll just say, look, I was there with the president.

I was there when the word participated was chosen.

And the word participated was chosen because there's an alleged cover-up, but the president did not want to say anything that would suggest

Those individuals who make a statement from the president.

Individuals who may have contributed to the defense of that, which would be with the property of their intended property.

We're guilty.

I mean, that's something that the court has done.

And I'll make the point that the president conducted an investigation, as you know.

And he simply did not want to make a flat assertion in his own, you know, and I can work that out.

I don't know.

I don't know if someone asked me about it.

Wounded knees over, of course.

People finally gave themselves up.

That'd be a big story.

I don't know why it would be.

We're going to brief today here on the Disaster Preparedness and Assistance Act of 1973, which has been transmitted to Congress.

Hey, don't, oh, what did I say?

Colson's, Hunter's actually blown a whistle on Colson.

They're going to get to him.

This is it.

What if you're asking about that?

There's nothing for me to say about it.

That's no common question.

I never knew about any such a goddamn silly, son of a bitching thing in my life.

But you see, I'm smiling.

Probably given up on this.

They talk about, for example, that's the best thing you should do.

Clemency.

God, if you had clemency, you wouldn't be talking.

The news reports this morning indicate that the prosecutors are going to make a decision sometime today or tomorrow on the immunity question on Dean.

CBS reports that the prosecutors may report that the prosecutors have decided not to give immunity to Dean.

That is just a report.

Do I think it's bad?

No, I don't think it's bad.

I think once he is aware of the fact that he no longer has the opportunity to get him anything, then it will be tougher.

No, he won't be tougher.

No, no.

Well, what would his motive be?

No, I don't think so.

He doesn't feel you do.

Well, I don't think it would be tougher.

What can it be tougher with?

Now, there's another interesting line in that.

I've heard this before, and I can't recall where I heard it before.

It's just a crazy maze.

Dean has a feeder

excessive fear of going to prison because of his young boyish looks.

He's afraid of being molested, therefore... That's somewhere I heard that.

I think it was Magruder, but here it's a strange association because... Maybe they were... Maybe.

I don't know.

Now, but the story goes on to point out, if that is the case, and Dean has not received immunity, then...

They could bargain with him at the time of conviction, so he may not be too topsy by that time.

Well, I am not worried about John D. He's got to be, as I told you, right.

Mainly because, just like I had talked to you at this moment, I thought, you know, very freely, well, I don't think so, to be honest.

It's a crazy damn business that I've been in for a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred,

Bob, my father's got a management directorate.

He was in it.

He has recorded the fact that I said, well, John, if you go down this line, I'll move it.

But he never said, that's my line.

I mean, of course it is.

I said, you can't get this guy to climb that single ladder and defeat him before the election.

I mean, he prepared for champions.

And you couldn't get him to beat the people.

So there's

So I nailed that one.

And in that conversation, I nailed it that hard.

I said, in second place, I said, how are things going to be over the next 40 years?

He says, if I can make it, how much is it?

I said, we'll get about it.

So I told him, we'll get it right there.

How the hell are you going to get it to him?

And he says, well, here's your credit.

Well, that's the point.

That's exactly it.

That's exactly the belief in the way we talk.

I understand that.

And I said, well, I mean, he's going to come out and say, we discussed it.

I said, Tony, you better go get him.

He ain't getting fired.

That's what he'll find.

Well, let us say, if I told him to go get that, and, uh,

and so forth and so on.

Of course, nothing like that was discussed.

But if so, we would have to deny it.

Sure.

Because what actually did happen is that we didn't do any of that.

Not in the White House.

There always was a White House.

And he had said he would find a model of me.

My only suggestion is I may do it as I've been talking to Bob.

My only suggestion is I may do it as they talked about.

And that is the case.

I didn't know.

I didn't know that.

I didn't know.

I'm absolutely sure.

Oh, yeah, I understand why you should do this.

I'm sure.

Are you sure?

I've recognized this.

I knew that the thing was broken.

I knew.

I read the story.

I knew that the thing was broken into.

The fact that I've racked my butt and Liddy did that.

Break in.

Canine.

Yes, say it.

Do you want to say the thought of it?

After the first week in April, just like the story, the fact that Hunt and Liddy did that, all of this was starting to gel, and it became clear to me that, boy, something really is going to happen right here.

That came during the part, I think, after the first week in April, when all of this was starting, it was the first week in April,

And all of that began to coalesce.

I knew that the thing was broken to Jim.

And it became clear to me that, boy, something really is going to happen around here.

Now, that was the first week in April.

And all of that began to coalesce and converge, all of these facts.

The fact that Hunt and Liddy did that break in came during the part, I think after the first week in April when all of this was starting to gel and it became clear to me that boy, something really is going to happen around here.

Now that was the first week in April and all of that began to coalesce and converge, all of these facts.

I was stunned when I heard that Hunt and Liddy had done that, and I was absolutely, totally stunned when I heard that Hunt and Liddy had done that, and I was absolutely, totally stunned when I told Erdogan.

I told Erdogan, and I said, this is what I heard that Hunt and Liddy had done.

This is during the period when we were beginning, and I was absolutely, totally stunned when I heard that Hunt and Liddy had done that, and I was absolutely, totally stunned when I told Erdogan.

You cannot stay and survive around here.

If you had awareness of a break-in during the period when we were beginning, if you had awareness of a break-in, as insignificant as it was, as insignificant as it was, and it was related to the security, it's because of the environment.

Remember those discussions we had when you were, they had a lead by some gentleman.

and not just related to national security.

It's because of the environment.

Remember the state and the discussions we were talking about?

related to national security, it's because of the environment.

You remember those discussions we were talking about?

Well, that's what convinced me to death.

That was what sank him.

He didn't see the point of that.

National security?

Yeah, I did.

I can defend.

You could even defend the burglary, defend the burglary for national security.

What is the problem in this whole thing?

The burglary was, if it was conducted by two key agents for the CIA, but it has CIA different

I mean, the burglary was...

It was conducted allegedly, you know, by two key agents for the CIA.

But it happened to have been conducted by Hunt and Liddy, who became later involved in the Watergate, who also were involved in a whole, an awful lot of other stuff allegedly, you know, like keeping, I mean, the...

The problem we've got...

I'm just trying to...

The problem we've got...

I'm just trying to...

Her weapon has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given, has given,

I don't know how much of that is unclear, but I'm going to get back to this.

I'm going to get back to this.

Yeah, yeah, so you can't... Yeah, yeah, so you can't...

The point of it is here.

When they begin, when people begin to break through, when people begin to try to go all the way through, they're going to try and go all the way, and they'll try and, natural human way, if you don't, at the right point, if you don't make the sand, you know, make the sand, they'll try and take over as an anarchy, as an anarchy.

That's right.

I guess I'm saying, oh, that's,

We'll begin to break through.

.

. .

This is where this is where you really need

This is where you need .

You need someone to really sit down and really...

This is where, Mr. President, this is where you really need

And how long have I ever talked about this again?

This is where you need.

If Al's not a lawyer, I'm not a lawyer.

Len Garment is okay, but not a lawyer.

Right.

You need someone to sit down and really get to judgments.

Get to judgments.

They make other judgments.

But understand, I don't want to.

This is exactly right.

I agree.

I agree with that.

59 to 31.

I agree with the statement that President Nixon still has most of the second term in the White House to go, so it is best that Nixon still has the benefit of the second term in the White House to go.

It is best to give him the benefit of the doubt.

59 to 31, they say they want the President to have a chance to leave his second term.

I'm curious about that.

It's a curious question.

59 to 31 agree with the statement that President Nixon will.

Still has most of the second term in the White House to go, so it is best to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The country that it was.

No, the country, sir.

The country that it was.

That's why most people listen to us and all the other partisans.

No, the country certainly doesn't.

That's why the plan was discussed at Florida.

I do agree with you.

The plan was discussed at North Florida.

I do agree with you, Roger.

The plan was discussed in Florida.

You can't separate the Rogers suit.

We have to get this out of the White House.

You can't have the Secretary of State step aside and take that.

I do agree with you on the Rogers.

But you can't have the Secretary of State to defend the president.

Then you really have a president.

On the other hand, on the other hand, Rogers, you can't send him out of state.

I'm not advocating this.

It's just another thing to be done.

Out of state, into a position.

We have to get this out of the White House.

Great eminence.

But he can't have the Secretary of State step aside and take that particular post.

He couldn't put him in Al's spot.

He couldn't do Al's spot.

See, Al is good for that because he keeps his guys down to help support the president.

Then he'd really have a presidential trial.

On the other hand, the things at home did so well.

But he could be put in a special band.

On the other hand, Rogers could move out of state.

I'm not going to admit he's a tight bro here.

He likes to move in those types of circles, doesn't he?

This is just another way to get Peter out of state, into a position.

Well, I don't know whether that kind of a move is right or not, but I mean, it's getting better and better.

Great eminence.

Well, he's moving.

Yes, he is.

Here you can see he's got no underestimation.

There's very little else left.

Yeah.

But there you put him on the receiving end.

He couldn't put him in Al's spot.

He couldn't do Al's spot.

See, Al is good for that because he keeps his guys out of the case of working and the things at home he did so well.

But he could be put in a special council type role here.

On the other hand,

Rogers could move out of state.

I'm not advocating this.

It's just another thing to be done.

Out of state into a position of great eminence.

He could do out of spot.

See, Alan's good for that because he keeps his guys' hands in place at work and the things at home he did so well.

But he could be put in a special council-type role here.

He likes to move in those type of circles, doesn't he?

Well, I don't know whether I can do that kind of a move right now, but I mean, who better to show them the top game?

Rodgers has got it.

Don't underestimate it.

Make sure this town is better.

And the country, Rodgers, is better.

Make sure this town is better.

And the country, Rodgers, is better.

Rodgers is a new.

I'll do the best I can I'll do as much as I can

I suppose today they're trying to do the best they can to have him up front and center.

I need to pay the rent.

I need to go to the court and have the justice.

If they are, I think he would anticipate that his lawyer would lash out.

President, they have to be smart enough that they lose you then.

They have to be smart enough that they lose you then.

I told you, of course.

will not testify unless the individual

Thank you.

I figured it out.

Do you want to touch 538?

You're smoking.

Do you want to touch 538?

The, uh, my money doesn't last.

Here's a little key.

Do you want to test 538?

My money doesn't last.

The other key is the confession.

The, uh, my money doesn't last.

You are, you are working a little bit.

You are working a little bit.

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

What good is it to say, hey, and I told you, do not lie.

What good is it to say, hey, and I told you, do not look.

I told the president, I told the president, I told the president, I told the president, I told the president, I told the president, I told the president,

And you've got to keep it quiet at all costs.

Your age.

My age.

Your age.

I doubt he'll do that.

I doubt he'll do that, but if he does, I doubt he'll do that, but if he does, I doubt he'll do that, but if he does, I doubt he'll do that, but if he does, then the answer to that very clearly is, gentlemen, the answer to that very clearly is, gentlemen,

Mr. Amita, I just want you to be clear with me.

I just want you to be clear with me.

But his counsel had been, his counsel had been, it was involved in some way.

It was misleading.

He was not sure.

It was involved in some way.

That's why we continue to counsel.

By God.

was misleading.

He was not sure.

He set out trying.

Now these, that's why we continue to have been, it was his first contract.

By God, he set out trying.

Lynn tells me that the Fred Thompson, the minority council.

Yeah, that there was knowledge.

It was misleading.

He was not sure.

Now these guys, Lynn tells me, wanted to meet with me.

Fred Thompson.

That's why we continue to express confidence.

But by God, he sat on track.

There was knowledge.

Now the Minority Council wanted to meet with me privately.

These guys, Lynn tells me that Fred Thompson, the Minority Council, wanted to meet with me privately.

I never know what Dean told me.

I've got him nailed on that seat.

But what did he tell you?

The guy who stuck.

But what did he tell you?

The guy who stuck.

How we got, what did he tell you?

In the guidance stuff.

They said we're, how we got, they've been arrested.

They said we're interested in finding out how, by finding out how, I got my guidance.

They said we're interested in finding out about 45 minutes of my guidance.

And there's absolutely no question we went through the files over and over for the briefings when Warren and I went just over to give us an ad with them to document how we got to guidance.

And there's absolutely no question we went through the files over and over and over again.

And OD refers to, rests on the 45 resident statement in San Clemente.

This is just documented.

Refer to the document how we got to guidance.

Again, D refers to rest on the present.

Yeah.

Also, state limit.

State limit.

Absolutely.

The question is, what do the files say?

Over and over and over.

Based on B2.

Yeah, right.

Refer to the Dean report.

Yeah.

Also, you tell them.

Again, D refers to .

Well, because of my public statements.

Yeah, right.

Well, I'm not... We're deferred to the dean report.

Well, because of my public statements.

Oh, God, I love it.

Yeah.

Well, because of my public statements, too.

On that point, sure.

I'll get you down, of course.

All they do, they know of.

Where to?

The Senate.

Oh, God, I'd love it.

Yeah.

Two.

On that point, sure.