Conversation 946-006

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Rogers raised the point.

He said, well, we've got to change that.

I told him last night, I said, he raised it with me.

He said, we ought to send this up today.

And I said, you know what?

What do you think, sir?

I didn't do wrong.

I think at least I think we'd get into Jackson.

We didn't send it.

We've got to describe the character of it as not requiring it.

And it doesn't.

Jackson will make the word clear.

This is about

Very positive.

That's the point.

I just got sick there.

I just heard Henry put it on his rocker.

And I just said, well, maybe we better send it to the Congress and better announce it.

But, you know, he...

The Congress may never get the force.

Our problem is that if the Congress gets a claim, it'll then give a...

to swallow this and a chance to start gorging it up and causing trouble.

I think I might just take a hard line, or is it required in the Constitution?

Not in a rough way.

It is a rough way.

You know, if you want to pass a resolution, that's fine.

Well, I'm approving that it is not required because it's like the principles of the communique or the principles that we've signed before.

It's pretty good.

It's a code of conduct.

It's a good name.

It's a good relationship.

does not require action on the part of either.

So he'd activized, and I told him that I was sure that you'd be opposed to that, because I personally wasn't.

And he said, come on.

Well, he said, it's hard.

It's hell.

I haven't said it.

His birthday came up.

Well, I helped him a little last night.

I got his birthday on my toast.

He enjoyed it.

And he died after he got through those courses.

You know, in terms of to have all those thugs around there and brushing up, just pawing and toasting, it was just an unbelievable scene.

Yes, sir.

You did it in public almost, but he didn't answer, really.

Almost.

Not as much, not half as many, but he was always leaning over and saying this.

They might have disclosed this brand, huh?

Yes, sir, but that's why I'm so pleased to see what he's writing in his term.

His term is you.

You have done this.

That's right.

It's personalized.

I tell you, it was great today.

And that thing in the east room yesterday, it just triggered me.

Just damn good.

It's a little thing like that.

It's been building anyhow, but that sort of pulled the cork on the bottom.

There's a massive play.

Yeah, there's a definite sense of goodwill all the way to the editorials down in the report.

Even from the city of West.

well of course of action because we are going to sit in the foxhole ball we've never seen

My father was the president.

Well, I think, you see, I have two options.

And I think we've opted for the right one.

One is to be back here when all this dean crap's on.

My view is the hell with it.

God damn it, you're running the country.

You broke the president down there.

And you had one hell of a week.

And I say that's fine.

And from the legislative point of view, we can handle everything.

I'm talking to him about it.

We're all set.

But Eric's going to, that's why he's going to stay back here.

He's going to manage this thing.

Larry can be here to manage it.

Larry can be very good at this.

Well, we got an awful lot of nickels in a political sense for approving those three bills last week, which exceeded your spending.

But it's paid off.

It's already paid off.

It's really paid off.

It won't make it bizarre.

I don't believe it's better than nothing.

Better than nothing.

The trouble with it was, sir, quite frankly, they use the same hacks all the time.

I know.

Everybody.

See, Mr. President, they use the same, please, but my point is, you've got to have somebody who will fight.

We've got to.

We're using Rudy.

Rudy?

Rudy's not so bad.

Is he good?

We've also got Dan Hinkin, who's sitting over here, and he's a pretty active guy.

Hinkin, what's his name?

Former.

No, he's working on a private sector.

He's got a job here.

He's making money.

He's a hell of a guy.

And he has a lot of good contacts.

Good.

They should probably ask about it.

They just didn't ask.

Or they all had a response.

I'm sorry.

They were worried about it.

The committee doesn't come close enough there.

They've got some bazaars that they don't want to help.

Isn't that interesting?

Because they figured that Colson would unload an awful bag of shit on the Democrats.

I don't know much, but I bet you he'd load a bag of shit on them.

I don't think the Democrats were worried about that 16-month story, is what I mean.

Don't you think so?

That was great.

Yeah, they are worried about that.

And that's one that, you know, I know, McNamara, Colton, they got the products of it over there.

I know them.

Because I was sitting around here in the office, and they had a task force working.

Now, they did it.

You know what they did?

They claimed at the lease level that all they did was to monitor who had it and who called it.

Now, you say, who the hell cares about their head and who called the dragon lady?

Who cares about that?

I don't know.

They ought to be a little worried about that.

Now, there's one other thing that I do think we ought to get out of what you're talking about.

I'm sorry about that.

He said that Rickettson is dragging the speed.

Because they think it would be very bad for the morale of the Bureau to have to give those things.

Now, it's our job, President, to put them out there.

These bills of study have to be made.

We have to know how this thing was used.

Now, I'm continuing to crack the records on this.

We're going to have this out.

I want those things.

I intend to have them.

And the tax?

And the investigation?

Absolutely.

very important.

Bizarre told me that the list person came over and he had some misspelled names.

Attention misspelled.

For example, and about Bizarre, here's where his legal thing overrides his public relations.

He said, he gave you the name of one person.

He said, yeah, this one.

He said, you know who that was?

He said, no, it was somebody else.

That will show them, that will show them something that we have never done.

That Bobby Kennedy used the FBI for political and personal purposes.

You understand?

Now that name's gotta get out and leak it now.

You've got to remember, God damn it, Rob, if you can't believe that, I'll tell you.

You ever tell us, sir?

I'm sure Elson was very close to Jack.

He didn't like bugging.

He liked Jack.

Yeah, but he spanked me for it.

He spanked me.

All right, just give them that one name.

Yes, sir.

One name.

Among those was this one.

Now, that one.

See, that's a shot across the bow, too.

It'll worry the Californians and all that.

They know they ordered bugging for political purposes.

You know that one.

Let me tell you.

I think they bugged me, too, in California.

Very minor.

I don't know what it was.

one name lately, that's all.

What good is it to us to have these names and so forth in our files, except to worry people about it?

But this one name will prove a very fundamental point.

I don't want to put out the names of who they bugged for an action security reason.

I just think the fact they bugged one person for political purposes will have a dramatic effect on people.

Well, maybe this, you know, something called, you know, a recant, just a character of Devon's place.

They repressed people.

And the intensity of it was greater for some people than anything done.

And even among them was an attraction.

The reason they are very leery of Colin Holmes' direction to go into this is that they know that there's a data sitting on the King of the Island.

I know.

But you, have you ever seen Michael Williams going away from the King of the Island?

But he said, if we put it for their approval, we're going to have to testify about every clause.

They're going to ask us, what does this mean for Cambodia?

What does it mean for the Middle East?

What does he mean?

Oh, Jackson, he breathed this morning.

I hear this very clever, it protects China.

Who, Jackson?

Oh, yeah, Jackson is on the board.

Why'd he breathe now?

Because we didn't want him to blow.

I didn't breathe in my cell.

What time?

It's about half an hour.

And he's been close to over a year in the universe.

Oh, I didn't mind him breathing, but I didn't know that he breathed.

I didn't.

Son of a...

The whole committee or something?

No, no, just private.

The one individual?

Well, he'll piss on it.

No, he said he wouldn't piss on it.

We were afraid he wouldn't piss on it if he didn't get free.

He said he would not piss on it because we don't know what his staff will do when they get through with it.

He said it's fine.

He said we have to keep it between promising too much and saying that it isn't anything new at all.

And he said we shouldn't.

It's taking away from those who claim too much for it.

Now on the reason, though, how about mentioning the congressman?

on being hit with that cold sort of caliber we use.

I wouldn't say we don't need congressional support.

I'd say it doesn't require any actions or obligations.

But we would welcome congressional support if they can find some way of doing it.

Why don't they wait until... And you'd appreciate their advice on how to get a joint resolution

I think what I'd say is that we consider this to be an essential step forward.

We would appreciate support on an individual basis, but it does not require formal support of the Congress.

That's what I think.

And I think that would be if they'd come out and support it individually, but it doesn't require formal support because it requires no actions.

But whatever the staff reaction is worth, it's worth their use in this office.

It was very positive.

I love talking about it.

Who cares about that?

But it doesn't make any difference.

We're not with that.

They ought to be a little worried about that.

and why.

And he said, either you're dragging them to beat the great cause, and not getting back at us.

They think it was back at us, right?

Now, the other one, he said it was very, very bad for the morale of the Bureau to have to give those names.

Now, Bizarre told me that the Lispers came over and had some mystical intentions.

For example, Bizarre said, well, President,

I said, you gave me the name of one person.

He said, yeah, this one.

So you know who that was?

I said, no, it was somebody else.

I'm going to have this out.

I want those names.

I intend to use them.

Do you know who that is now?

He said, that's the guy that wrote in the tax that published that schedule sheet.

Andy?

Andy, it must be Andy.

Bobby and Jack.

Thank you.

All right, just get to that one guy that wrote.

Now, that name must get out.

That one name, that's all.

You understand why?

That will show them.

Something we have never done.

That Bobby Kennedy would produce the FBI for political and personal purposes.

Are you seeing it?

They bug me too.

Now, that needs to get out.

Believe it or not, we've got to get it out.

You can't believe that.

We were.

All right, just give them that one.

We were fucked, and we know, but I thought it was the Brown people, but it could well have been Bobby doing it for Brown.

See?

And that name, of course, isn't going to be on that damn list.

But what I mean is, I don't want to put out the name of the people and civil rights leaders.

Namely, that's all.

What good is it to us?

And so forth and so forth and so forth and so forth.

figures, there were several rights figures, and it just, you know, it was great.

You know, the recap, just the tools, the names of the people, and the character of

Go into this.

Yes, sir.

I agree.

Just one minute.

But if they want to express their support, you'd be happy and you'd welcome them.

But he said if we put in for their approval, we're going to have to testify about everything.

They're going to ask us, what does this mean for Cambodia?

What does it mean for the Middle East?

What time?

What time is it?

And he told them that he probably read those words he had been given in the book.

They quickly did not notice.

They looked at him.

That line didn't mean great, but I didn't know that.

I didn't read it.

I didn't.

The son-in-law said, what time?

What time?

It's about half an hour.

I said, read the whole thing.

No, no, I'm just driving.

The one individual.

He read those words he had been given in the book.

He said, that line didn't mean great, but he said,

We were afraid he wouldn't piss on it.

But I didn't know the name.

I didn't.

He didn't get one from me.

He said he would not piss on it.

No, no, just private.

He said he wouldn't piss on it.

We were afraid he wouldn't piss on it.

He didn't get free.

He didn't.

Mel said it.

Mel actually understood it very well.

He said he would not piss on it.

We don't know what his staff will do when they get through with it.

He said it.

We have to keep it.

do at all.

And he said, Mel said, we shouldn't.

He said, Congress, if you want to beat it, hit it with that coal mine.

He said, it's, we have no power where we live.

It doesn't require any act.

We shouldn't.

It doesn't take people long to get it.

We would welcome congressional

On me, you'd appreciate their advice on... Hit it with that cold...

I wouldn't get a joint resolution.

I...

The joint resolution, the members are welcome to that.

I would...

I would say...

I'd say...

Why don't they wait until they come out?

I think what I'd say is that we consider this to be a very substantial step forward.

But we would like, we would appreciate support on an individual basis, but it does not require formal support of the Congress.

That's what I think on our case.

And I think that Mel Dunn's defense would be if they'd come out and support it individually.

But it doesn't require formal support.

It doesn't require no actions.

But on our part, whatever the staff reaction is worth, it's worth it.

And I agree with each other.

It was very positive.

Lawyers.

Very discouraging.

I would argue that a little bit.

Let me say this.

Let me say, I think that there is, it's not so much as thinking of it as a lack of enthusiasm in picking it up.

But today's news was very interesting.

For example, the Senate committee memorandum is playing very well to us.

The story, for example, on the front page of the Post, it's playing quite heavily, is the March 21st thing on the money where you said it's wrong, it cannot be done, it will not be done.

It's coming from the memorandum.

It's coming from its own momentum.

very good then the other thing is that there's a great

as a part of the memorandum study, as a part of the memorandum meeting and so forth, and the president's case really being put forward in a very effective way, not from the lineup.

I think we're posturing ourselves going into next week

beginning to build, and then the committee about using leaks for personal advantage and so forth, but none of it tied to the White House.

Then there's, of course, then there's speculation beginning to build as to what the motive is.

Is it Dean?

Is it the committee?

And what the motive is.

I firmly believe, and I will stand up for this, be as strong on this as anyone else, I firmly believe, though, and I still hold this to you, if we move,

Oh, yes, sir.

He said, what about the cover-up of China?

He said, thank you.

Everything I did was both in my campaign.

He said, they knew my speeches before I gave them all, which is true.

He said, I was totally boxed in by the Democrats.

We would have to use bucking.

Now, first of all, this is in March.

And I tell him, what the hell would we be using by then?

The whole pipe was.

I said, get a supplement.

I followed all that up.

And everybody's like, oh, damn it.

Get a whole supplement.

And he said, yes, I've heard of that, sir.

He was in the creek down there.

He crept up towards the star and the flyer.

but I think

So we have that.

Then we have all of this Dean under her building on its own.

You understand, on this, Allen went into this money thing.

He believed that the Dean was skinned on him.

He thinks maybe that there were a couple of the committees that skinned him on him.

I was talking to Newsweek yesterday, and I think they're about ready to take a big, solid strike down these backs.

Why?

Well, because they feel they've been used, and I do.

You say the press was used, and they were.

They were.

I agree with the fact that we've got to get people on the hill standing up.

I think that's in motion.

Well, there's a plan for this.

You're going to move with the guard going up there and giving them, you know, the feel and the confidence.

Blair apparently is talking to people about confidence.

And Elliot Richardson got back to me about a shot.

After that shot, I fired him.

I swear to heaven to hell.

A, because he feels that's the right way, and B...

but we just can't allow, we cannot allow somebody in here tearing this administration's guts right out.

It's just foolish.

We're just, we're allowing it from the press room, we're allowing it from Congress, and we're allowing it from our own appointees, and this is not going to happen.

Well, let me say something, sir, because I, I don't know an awful lot about press, but I'd say today's press is the best you can in six days' time.

and with this shot in the arm today that's going to bounce that's a that's a psychological

Every, now take Dan Rather.

I've heard Dan Rather for a week now.

He's talking about a new president, a new White House.

This is being done.

You see, that's why, that's why I think we've got to be alert to Dean.

I agree with what the president says.

The headlines are damaging.

The other one, on a new attitude of cooperation with the Congress, bridging off your speech in Illinois, that your actions are now proceeding that way.

Of course, sir, we don't take any comfort from that.

But it's a hell of a good time to have them.

Speaking of the Congress, I have one small thing.

and all of that period.

And I asked him flat out on Cambodia, I said, Senator, you know, you're talking politely, but I said, Senator, did you ever, did you ever consider the impact that you could have on our foreign policy in a positive way if you did not move in a detrimental way on Cambodia?

That's science.

He's gone.

He's on a very challenging event.

the PR objective, and that is the best way to move the line up to this point has been for the Czar to move, giving facts to the Congress.

That's how the Czar moves.

In other words, this was because it came out of non-attributable sources.

That's right.

In two areas.

A, on the money, and B, most importantly, on those notes.

If we would have, Mr. President, we have to keep this in mind.

Actually, when I say that, I suppose at the risk of thinking that I don't like to attack

If we would have moved that $4,000 out of here in any way whatsoever, if we would have moved those White House notes out of here in any way whatsoever, Dean would be 50% ahead of the state, wouldn't he?

How?

Because they're trying to pin that on us, and they can't.

And if we would have gone through our normal mechanisms, we would have given them the opportunity to say, Dean's not saying much of anything.

He's wallowing over there behind his door.

Dean is really quiet, isn't he?

I don't think he has anything more to say.

He's scared to death.

And Thompson just threw the question in the middle of us in a very serious way.

He took Dean apart and Dean had to admit it because he thought Thompson

I'm sorry.

I was so pleased to see that story this morning.

Which one?

On the Bitman thing.

On the March 21st.

Because it carried it all.

It just went through.

And on the 23rd, you're constantly asking, was anyone in the White House involved?

And it had the, no, there's not one.

That was in the story, too.

And then it repeated this again and again, probed and impressed him.

Was anyone in the White House involved?

He said, no, it was a beautiful presentation.

And the headline was, President Opposed Money for the Defendants or Something.

But it's in context.

I don't even read it.

If it says that.

But that's the charge.

That's how all this came about.

Because then I asked the question, how much would it cost to report it?

That's how I said it wouldn't work.

I said, well, you know, we might be wrong.

Well, the way it comes out is you could raise a million dollars, but it won't work.

It's wrong.

Isn't that the way it's put together?

That's all right.

Good.

And we've got to know that all of it will hit that in a state of itself, I think.

Yes, I know.

I just thought, call me at 7 o'clock.

Rogers, after having this legal officer grab him this night for two weeks, Rogers, Rogers has his money, Rogers has his money.

They've raised this point.

Whether we should change it, though, because, you know what the argument's about, don't you?

You've got to be alert to Dean.

I agree with what the President says.

You see, that's why headlines are damaging.

You've got to be alert to Dean.

I agree with what the President says.

The headlines are damaging.

The other one's one of new.

It's a hell of a good time to end them.

and all of that period.

Okay.

And I asked him flat out on Cambodian, I said, nice way to dinner in Indiana Johnson and Senator, you know, you're talking politely, but I said, Senator, did you ever, all of that period, did you ever consider, and I asked him flat out on Cambodian, I said, Senator, you know, you're talking that, that you could have on our foreign policy in a positive way.

Yet, you did not move politely.

But I said, Senator, did you ever consider the impact that you had in the detrimental way of a candidate?

He said, no, no, no.

He said, it's not about that, Senator.

But you could have a hard-fought policy in a positive way.

Yet, you did not move.

We know what that means.

Now, we may not.

He's got this kind of terrible alcohol.

Albert said he was out of personal business.

He's got a terrible alcohol.

He's probably, I don't know what that means.

I've got to be in for a while.

Now, we may not.

He's got a terrible alcohol.

Another thing he did very well yesterday was terrible.

That signing ceremony was the greatest thing going.

That's right.

Your sense of humor.

It was great.

But we've got to remember that he's got excellent ideas, Mike.

I'm right.

But as a media, as a matter of fact, no, this is more of a bizarre.

Our next in town, we're going to get some people from the league.

We've got a great deal.

This doesn't make any difference, really.

It doesn't make any difference.

It's a cannon.

Yeah.

It's a cannon.

In other words, this was because he's got actual ideas, my goodness.

But Bazaar's case is not a down-to-earth, unbelievable source.

That's right.

In two areas, A, a great piece, and B, it doesn't make any difference, really.

It doesn't make any difference.

No, Bazaar didn't.

If we would have, Mr. President, we have to keep this in mind.

Actually, can I say that?

I suppose in the real world, people are thinking that I don't know.

Bazaar, thank you.

It's not playing a PR role.

What he is doing.

If we would have moved.

We're doing a survey.

A thousand out of here.

In our objective way whatsoever.

If we.

That is the best way to move a line.

If we would have moved those.

Up to this point.

It's been.

For bizarre house notes out of here.

In any way whatsoever.

Dean would be.

To move.

Give him 50% of his.

Wouldn't he be back soon?

Now.

In the Congress.

Give him.

That's how this goes.

They have.

In other words, Mr. President, we would have gone through our normal mechanisms.

We would have gone and came out of non-attributable sources.

That's right.

What does it mean to say?

It means to say two areas.

A, on the money, and B, on the ease-walling over there behind us.

If we would have, Mr. President, we have to keep this really quiet, isn't it?

I don't like it.

Keep this in mind.

If there's anything more to say, it scares me.

Actually, when I say that, I

If we want to move that $4,000 out of here in any way whatsoever, if we want to move those White House notes out of here in any way whatsoever, the redeem would be

behind his door.

Dean is really quiet, isn't he?

I don't think he has any more to say.

He's scared to death of it.

All speakers, have a seat on the ground.

And Thompson just drew the question in the middle of us, and I said,

Praise the right guys.

I'm sorry.

I was so pleased to see that story.

I'm sorry.

I was so pleased to see that story.

It carried it all.

It just went through.

It quoted it all.

It's wrong.

It would come out anyway.

This must not happen.

Voted, really.

Just in the whole story.

The person heard that, he said, yeah, it's wrong.

It would come out anyway.

Yes, sir.

And it happened.

Then on the 20th, this must not happen.

You're constantly asking, was anyone in the White House the whole story?

Yeah, it had all handled.

No, it didn't.

And then it had the, no, there's not one.

That was in the story, too.

And then it repeated the story.

Again, the story, too.

And then it repeated the story.

And again, it probed and impressed him.

Was anyone in the White House to know?

It was a beautiful presentation.

opposed, in the headline was, the president opposed money for the defendants or something.

Now, that was a good song, wasn't it?

Yes, I get that.

It's in context.

I'm only reading it if it says that.

It's in context.

You could raise a million dollars, but it won't work.

It's wrong.

Isn't that the way to put it together?

That's all right.

Good.

We got it out of the hall.

We'll hit that.

Isn't that the way to put it together?

We'll be right back.