Nixon, Kissinger & Woods on Watergate scandal and Ervin Committee

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Go ahead.

You can be back in a moment.

Did anybody like visit the watch for Julie and say, I'm happy that my mom and dad are home today?

Ladies, please be careful.

I'm glad I'm coming in.

And we've got the main thing, and it's got roads and stuff.

Roads, oh yes.

Yeah.

That's fine.

We better put that back in the box.

OK. Do you want me to have, you know, carry the whole thing?

There it is.

Which was the beginning of his change of mind about you.

Because he thought that was the most professional thing he'd ever seen.

He was doing an article for a live.

And then I hadn't heard from him until he called me last week and said he was doing an article about Watergate.

Would I be willing to see him?

Now, I like his writings.

He's always chosen the original mind.

So I agreed and I had lunch with him.

Today?

Yeah.

Good.

And, you know, I was...

just going to be defensive to keep him, I thought he'd have the usual radical approach.

And he said, he said he was very impressed by Mitchell, who was a real man, tough man.

He said that in his judgment, and this amazes me, I mean, amazes me from this point, he said, he said, don't let it fool you, this is going to be the

transformation of the president.

He said now he's going to become even perhaps a beloved figure of many people because he said what you're doing is what the average American can identify with, a man who hangs in there, who doesn't rattle, who overcomes adversity.

He says it's going to take a while.

He thinks it's over.

He thinks there's no chance of them destroying him now.

I think it might be easier on this paper thing, but the whole thing.

All of a sudden, those papers have to burn.

Hopper and every guy with that paper.

Every paper in this house burned under that committee.

Mr. President, it would be irresponsible to let those sons of bitches... Dick Moore made a good statement when he was in the barber shop.

But she also said he knew you didn't know anything.

Now they're grilling him.

He isn't fast enough on his feet.

They're not tough enough.

But they're not there grilling him about crap.

They're...

It's outrageous.

What he should do is to tell them that their questions are irrelevant.

They're asking him about IT and T and stuff like that.

He did nothing about that.

So, but he made a very good statement.

But he makes a total statement that he knows very well.

See, he was with me on occasion when he saw me.

He was the one that told him to come in and tell me.

And that's what he said.

But he said that on March 20th, he was at a meeting with you, and he knew you didn't know that.

After that meeting, he asked Dean whether he had told you, and Dean had said no.

And he said then he told Dean to make sure to tell you.

And then Dean didn't, you see.

And then, on the first, Dean didn't tell him about his own law, and he never really directly involved mental illness in our home, and it was all...

Well, they might be involved.

They might be involved.

The interesting thing is, no, no, I think it was a very strong statement.

But Mabel, it was very fascinating to me.

I have a little case of viral pneumonia that I should remember.

I probably have it for about two days.

And so I'm going to go out at about 6.30.

I don't think that's right.

But the point is,

Somebody's going to know it.

In fact, the most important thing now is to keep my physical body in shape to do this job.

Mr. President, I think you must go to bed.

Yeah, I hate to do it.

And no one asks you to be superhuman every...

But I know at this stage even a touch of humanity is even helpful.

But I...

But I thought that Mailer said... Mailer is a very good man.

And he spoke, really, he spoke with a section of you, and he wanted to hear all about you, what sort of a man are you.

That's good.

And I gave him a lot of stuff.

I said, you know, all this nonsense.

He is a man who spends hours alone.

He's the most philosophical president that I think we have had certainly in this century.

All this nonsense.

And he wanted examples, and I gave him some of our discussions about young people and about where this country is going, and it's certainly going to appear in his introduction.

That's interesting.

You think she was going to be...

I think, Mr. President... No, no, I wasn't putting him off.

I meant to tell...

When I came in, I wanted to tell you, if he can bring off 80% of what he says he will, and I don't see how the French can dare to stand up, you are going to have a smash in Europe at the end of this year because nobody expects it.

And...

They are willing to do great detail on security, great detail on economics, great detail on political consultation.

All we need is them.

If the Germans do it, the British will do it.

I've already lined up the Belgians.

So we've got three strong supporters, the French and the Dutch.

Certainly I've talked to them because they'll certainly go along.

I've got the Italians coming on Monday, they're just slaughtering with enthusiasm that anyone has taken them seriously.

And if we can set up this pyramid of meetings, two in Brussels and a summit in Paris, and since no one expects anything to come out, it is better than what we have planned.

And I think then, if one puts all of this in the Watergate context, Mr. President, by the end of this year,

These guys are going to look like a bunch of dogs slapping at your heels again.

I should go ahead and hug them down and tell them I stole the whole thing myself and looked at all the documents.

That's how we won the election.

That's if they want to hear the truth.

I went to them and heard it today.

I said, where'd you go, Senator?

Who are you out to get?

Did you talk to him?

No, because I had to because he had...

written a letter demanding documents, and said I'd like to call him about it.

And I wanted to, I wanted to put it off so that I didn't see him.

Why, it was an early conversation.

Al sat there gulping.

Oh, he proved.

It's like the one I had with the green.

Remember that one?

Oh, yeah.

The first one.

Of course, you always do it in a very pleasant manner.

You do it tough when you have a deal.

It's too damn pleasant with him, though.

But I said, you know, what do you want about the documents?

He said, what do you have in mind?

He said, well, we can't.

I said, tell us what you want.

He said, well, we want any activities that have to do with water.

I said, well, that's all.

He said, well, we'd have our council come down and go through the documents.

I said, no, Senator, that isn't going to happen.

He said, everything from your committee leaves.

Do you know that?

Yeah, that would be fine, Senator.

I said, I was .

And he said, well, how about that?

Because his letter said he wanted himself and members of his staff to come down and have a talk with me about the destruction of the thing.

I said, Senator, no, I won't do that.

I was .

I said, well, how about another suggestion?

I said, Senator Baker, do you need to come?

I said, no.

I said, Baker's no constitutional lawyer.

I said, I'll see you alone.

You want to come?

But I can't do it this week.

I said, I'm busy with economic matters.

I've got to work on that.

But he said, we've got to bring these witnesses in.

And we have four days.

And I said, well, we were talking about Paul.

I said, when are you going to hear him?

He said, next week.

I said, Senator, I don't think you're correct.

I said, I don't think you're going to hear him until the next week.

He was sitting there.

Of course, the old ass.

And of course, I was right.

He got it to him.

I said, as far as documents are concerned, I said, a top secret document.

You read one of the files.

No reason not to talk to them.

You can't let this son of a bitch get away with this.

You'll squeal and the press will say the president was tough.

I was decent, but I was very tough.

I think the press has had it, and they know it.

I think they have had it.

It's all set.

It's a usual thing now.

We've got Larry and Harlow, even Harlow, pushing for a compromise.

Maybe we can give them some.

You know, work something out.

Sit down with the committee and work it out.

Let's not have a constitutional crisis.

As Al said, just like the convoy and troop withdrawals and everything else, sometimes you can't compromise.

So we'll have a constitutional crisis.

I mean, we do.

It'll be a goddamn ding-dong battle.

And we might lose.

I'll burn the fingers.

Because I got them.

That's the point.

The election.

I would never turn these papers over to the court.

Never turn them over to the committee.

You see, if you make the selection, they won't accept it.

Well, I said if I selected them, I had a question.

But I had deliberately not selected papers.

I knew that papers were a crime.

But my counsel did come.

I said, oh, your counsel's

He got the message.

Now, after the way to Baker, Bishop, first through Salt Falls to Dena, and man, I hate to tell you, Howard Baker has never been to Dena White House again.

That's right, through Salt Falls.

But actually, he's working out pretty well.

as a mature and tough guy.

Really?

Yes.

I didn't see much of him, but what I saw, he impressed me.

And compared to these lackey, selfish little bastards like Bruder and Dean, at least you could see why Mitchell was an adoption for Charles.

And, uh...

So far now, Mitchell has flatly said, you didn't know.

Moore has said, you didn't know.

I'm sure all the men will say the same thing.

So will her.

And so I'm sure they will.

And what the hell have they got?

A colt, they'll say.

A colt and a kilter.

A strong one.

A lower one.

A strong one is in the deemed category.

You can't add anything to deemed.

All these are basically a...

What concerns you?

I don't care if they gave it to me.

Frankly, I'll say sure enough.

I read it every morning.

It's interesting.

So about that, I'm sick of it.

I don't have any more to say.

Mr. President, you should maintain your position brutally now because it's now the future of the country that's involved.

It doesn't make any sense.

It is irrelevant what you do in the world.

It is totally, quite honestly, my view is, I of course believe what you say, but it's irrelevant.

Uh, 90% of this stuff they're talking about goes on all the time.

We just, in this place, it was done in a stupid bureaucratic way.

All the religions, good God, as soon as I had a chance to consecrate on her, I was like, what do I do?

Cut off two arms.

Who the hell wants to consecrate on her?

Who has ever done that before?

I fell off two arms, and they went after the body.

When you consider the massive things you had done for the country, the treasonable actions that these people condoned, they are treasonable.

Well, taking 10,000 government documents in the middle of the war, attacking the military, attacked having rights,

I mean, on January 3rd, knowing I was going over for negotiations at Bassett's past, cut off a board, that is immoral.

I wish you could have it made up in your .

About four pages of that sort of thing, could you do that?

Yes.

I mean, just sort of not spelled out.

These are things that hurt us.

Well, you see, I plan to make a speech, but not now.

I'll do it early in September, but I need Henry by, shall we say, within one week.

Fair enough.

Well, don't you worry.

Oh, I don't know if I... Keep quiet.

But, Mr. Benson, you see, I now will be conceded faithful this year.

By the end of October, you're going to have a smash success in Europe.

It's now going to be, if the Germans really deliver what they say, since we've got the French intelligence and British, the French cannot hold on.

Cannot hold out.

We've got the Dutch in the Dutch.

There's no one that won't go along with it.

And so you'll be coming back from Europe with a great success.

This will, again, throw the pressure summit into a much better perspective.

The first time he read that agreement for the prevention of nuclear war, he said, that's, he said, oh, that's just nothing.

The next time he read it, he said, that's interesting.

The third time he read it, he said, this may turn into a historic document.

You and I all got this.

Thank you.

I was wondering, when you were checking on the stations, about running an ambassador to an article about the elegance of the audience.

I think I've spoken to you about it.

But the ones that I had in mind, you have to have a... Go ahead, okay, talk to me.

...for these state senators.

Now, you could lose your place, but you could run in one for Iran, and a couple in the other.

I think the three I would like to have are those that are going to change for me.

run it.

Well, and you have to have it poured in indeed.

Well, the trouble is, Mr. President, if you invite ambassadors...

So you can have the British?

Yes.

And you can have Cromer, right?

Well, I don't think the Iranians would like it.

I mean, the visitors certainly don't like it if other foreigners aren't invited.

Even Cromer?

No.

Well, Cromer is out of the country for six weeks.

I must be careful, but we invited out of form with the British that were very unhappy.

Right.

Let's get back.

We shouldn't have the old farmer.

Well, that was nice, but he was here.

No, it was a nice picture.

They didn't like it.

Well, they won't dare try to teach us all this.

Ah.

Sure.

I hope you feel better.

Don't worry about that.

I'll take it.

No, as soon as I get the x-ray in my head.

Could I check with you to find out?

Ask for the x-ray.

Can I check with Julie or somebody, what it shows?

I'll call you.

Would you?

Thank you.

It isn't serious.

It's just what I'll find it's debilitating.

It's just what it is.

It's probably, it's probably, they think 97% probably.

case of viral pneumonia, but mild so far.

The difficulty with viral pneumonia hangs on for sometimes at least three days and sometimes a week.

And if it hangs on, I may have to just go to bed for a week or three days, and I'm going to do it.

I think you should go to bed, Mr. President, and frankly, I believe you would give the people a chance for some human expression towards you, which the media now prevent.

So I do not think it would be at all unfortunate.

Well, the other point is that we don't.

What I would have to do, Henry, is to do like I did today, is to rush over to some symbolic meeting like the shield and the fire marshals.

But I think you get... And I shouldn't do that.

The danger is that you get worse.

That I think it would be...

I think it's really even from a beyond point of view that people need something that they can hold on to now.

And with its daily beating, this would give them a chance for some humans.

So my strong recommendation really is to call the parents and let Ziegler announce it.

And, you know, we can announce meetings with you in your bedroom.

Yes.

Not a bad idea.

Nixon, Kissinger & Woods on Watergate scandal and Ervin Committee

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on July 12, 1973

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