Nixon, Haig & Ziegler on Watergate scandal and Ervin Committee

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

So what the hell, let me say I went out there and checked them and chose any significant evidence on the line.

I just couldn't go to Walter Reed and sit in my ass for a week, or at least for five days.

I think that's a good thing.

And I'll meet with people out there.

People can come out and see me.

And I would do leave.

That would be a, give us a chance to do leave.

And I'll just do it as a paper.

Which is the way it ought to be done anyway.

That's good.

I was trying to mention one thing to you out there.

I'm sure it's clear.

You know, people like to be asked to help when they offer to help.

Curtis says, look, there are nine people that will do anything for you.

You know?

Timmons probably didn't think of this, because he doesn't think too much of things.

And he's great if you tell him what to do.

He's not creative, but he's so much better at it.

Why don't we just ask Curtis, those fine senators who signed up in this paper deal, to sign up at the Goldwater University.

Do you think we can do that or not?

Sure.

The President's got to stand here.

We want your support.

Can you muster some other support?

We should not be, the thing I'm concerned about right now is not being defensive about all this, wringing our hands, worrying about it, because I know how people are.

You know, it's like every decision we ever made.

You know, they look back like Cambodia made.

December 18th.

But my point is, you must not go.

You make a tough decision.

You've got to go through and plow through and take the heat.

Now, if they want to give us heat, fine.

Let the goddamn committee, they unanimously come out and they want the papers.

Okay, fine, they want the papers.

They've got to get the papers.

The League of Un-American Activities Committee unanimously in 1953 asked Harry Truman to appear in the subpoena.

He didn't.

Okay, I just read the write-back to him.

Is there any question about it?

No question about it.

And the only guy who's squealing a little bit is now.

The others are fine.

Bryce's boy said, I'm 100%.

He said, I just want to tell you outside.

How did you explain it to him?

How do you take one paper?

First, I can't let that go through my papers.

Oh, no, no.

The second thing is that if we go through the papers, we're going to be charged with selectly owning those things that are not our money.

So we lose that way.

Third, if we go through the papers, the difficulty is, how in the name of God are we going to be able to tell what we can give and not give?

I don't know.

I just don't know.

There isn't anything like this, then, Dick Moore.

Tell me about that, Scott.

He had a red statement.

That was just, that was the best thing.

Was it really?

He just killed it.

Absolutely crucial.

How did he do it?

Well, he went through, he said that his discussion, he said, now, as he gave the first discussions between me and our discussion of this had to come, he brought to the President's attention, he said, in my continuous and repeat discussions with this man, on no occasion

Was there any inkling that he believed, nor did I believe, that the President of the United States had any knowledge whatsoever of the events?

That's why he came in on March 9th, okay?

He just laid it to me.

I have got to agree.

Really, just agree.

That's why he took him on, to know that he knows the truth.

So, I and Dean is absolutely clobbered.

He is discredited beyond a chance.

Also, I think Rose was telling me that, well, in the meeting between me, it was he, not Dean, that said that he chose the president.

That's right.

Good God.

If, uh...

It looks like me being the actor, me being the good guy inside trying to get this thing out.

Bullshit.

Not that way.

They say so.

They never ask.

In my conversations, I go back.

There's six patients.

I said, is anybody in the White House?

They said, no.

But there are also, I think, five people.

I said, John, why not let it all hang out?

First, he said, well, they wouldn't believe it.

Second, I said, why don't you go down and testify?

That would raise problems.

All the way, he was giving excuses.

I don't know why the hell he was given excuses, because I didn't dream that all the key was deep in a chrysalis.

But anyway, that's that.

On the paper, I don't know.

I thought it was hard also to check the court thing.

I'm not too damn sure that we're going to have to pay the cops if he comes in.

If we do, it's going to be awful.

Oh, no, I'm not, you know, on the cops.

We just may have to fire the son of a bitch.

You know?

It's good to have those two more in time.

That's why, that's why today David Woodmore was going to say why Irving ran the letter out today.

I didn't see her handle it properly either.

What did he say?

A, that there had, yes, there had been a letter.

B, that there had been a telephone discussion.

C, that you had agreed to some time.

Meetings with the chair.

At the chair's request.

The chair requested this, and this was, of course, it's just a courtesy response.

A, that there was absolutely no change in the position.

letter outlawed to the committee chairman on the 6th of January.

It's important because the way that bastard played it, which is the way I thought he would, that he suddenly got her compromised in a way.

So, Ron is also giving the wire guys before TV, because that's the way they interpret it.

They really don't know how the President's going to come along.

The President's going to have surgery.

He's saying, you heard what I said, the Trump man, his response to that is, well, there may be any reason for us to meet.

But this is very significant.

It means that the moves made today were moves of weakness and not strength by the people.

Because if they were moves of strength, your toughness,

would have been what they had decided.

They didn't, though.

They didn't.

And we cannot lose sight of it.

That's what our boys, the little boys in here, are losing sight of it.

God damn it.

You're getting stronger.

You're going to stay strong and get stronger every day.

And by God, they'd better stop wringing their hands.

Well, I'm not going to be weak.

I haven't been up to this point, but I must say, I've had some bad advice during this free week.

Maybe he wasn't.

Maybe we had no choice.

But screw them now.

They have misused the judicial process.

Whether it's Little Ellie or Richardson or anybody else, it's going to be no-go, boys.

Barry Goldwater's going to get a kick in the ass.

I won't see him.

I told Bryce to give him a call.

I said, yeah, I can't.

We don't expect him to be a charge to the opposition.

That's not going to be any of that for us.

Well, there may be some of that, but if he does, he breaks his pick, now, understand?

He breaks his pick, but it doesn't stand.

It's a matter of party principle, now, isn't it?

Well, Ron came back to me after that earlier meeting before I saw him and said, Jesus Christ, now, this is...

He had the plane right into their hands, and thank God he pulled that back or something.

But he... And I said, you know, and I told him, is there really any meeting with whatever...

He said, the way the press is going to play this, if we don't get it tamped down is a strong statement.

It is a compromise.

The president's came.

I said, like hell he's came.

Are you sure?

Are you confident that Ron got that across?

I said, no.

I'll put it out in writing.

His statement came out very strong, the brief warning statement.

And Ron's got the wire guy sitting in it.

He's saying, God damn it.

This is a courtesy meeting at the request of the chairman.

Of course, the president can meet that kind of thing.

There's no change in his position.

No change.

He emphasized that to the chairman.

The fact that it's almost too strong was read.

He said, there will be no change.

Good.

Fine.

Leave it right there.

That's where it is.

I must get it right.

You got it?

I'm getting it right now.

I haven't missed a day in four and a half years.

Not a day, not a fight, nothing.

I've been seconding guns.

I've been in the pool with a lot of other men, not everybody else, but I don't keep looking.

But I don't think you can fool around with this crap, which they tell me is very debilitating and criminal.

I don't think mine is that serious, but it could be.

Let me say, even if it doesn't, I could use maybe a couple of free days.

And call it back.

Let me have you do this in an hour.

Then we'll have the economic time to get in and out of the hospital.

That's not bad either.

I guess...

I don't know.

I figure what I could do.

I could radio it from there.

That's not a bad idea, you know.

I want to read Hospital Suffering, Byron Colonial.

President reads the radio address to the nation.

and call them there, right?

Perfectly.

Good way to do it.

I'm not even sure if you want anybody calling on you there.

Maybe.

If you have a case of this, fire one.

that he put out a top secret document uh in the public thing i said this is i want that let's get that out and not a bad time you you go over your notes and get wrong every time and uh

what i mean is straight up so that they're not going to incur the idea that this is a compromise you've got that jackass goal there

He doesn't stand up well at that time.

He's great at it.

This is a very tough time.

Does it say in my talk, Senator, when I meet with you, Senator, at a time that's convenient next week?

Bob, let's clearly understand that my position has changed.

Yes, sir.

He says that in a lead, in a bulletin lead.

He says that it's just precisely what you said about him.

We were right there.

Thank God it says that.

Yes, sir.

And also, when Urban suggested that they made a staff, I vetoed it, when he suggested that he and Bender come, the President said no.

He said no.

No staff.

To answer that, the purpose of the discussion is only

I don't think that raises vacuum issues.

No, because the lead says that the president said he would receive it.

They requested it.

Yeah, but I don't want the impression given to Senator Ervin

him right off the bat on ITT.

I just was telling some press here, I said, this is appalling.

I said, ITT?

I said, what is he going to do with ITT?

Well, I'm just going over the Mitchell log.

They're trying to crack him down.

Now, I got a call from some friends I have at NBC who have the open mic monitor.

And during a course, and this is kind of, it's so obvious, during the course of the cross-examination by Lansner,

Earthen apparently reached over and couldn't quite get his hand on the mic and said to Nash, we've got him off guard now.

You know, kind of like, it's working.

He called me and told me.

I said, well, I hope you use it on the air.

I have a question about the fact that I asked you who you're trying to get.

You're going to get better than that.

I said, based on what some of your staff have said, it's quite clear that you're not going to have the presence.

I said, you're not going to succeed.

He got it right in the ass.

Got half of our staff that resigned.

Frank, go to hell.

I'll tell you, we're going to resign today.

Don't laugh.

No, sir.

It's more than that.

In a crunch, this guy, on a crunch like this, let's not be misled by people.

He's the smartest guy.

No, but not only that.

He has the best judgment and today exercises the strongest judgment in his interest because he said to a group of individuals who will remain named exactly what you just said and forced that point through, didn't he?

And he said it in very articulate, strong ways.

Now, we all tend to think that Glenn's the weak man here

You were strong today, wasn't you?

Supported you in that position and the others.

You can't possibly start standing there.

Now, with Herb in the right hand, because we see the old fart, what is the time when we get the leash in play?

I was thinking around 7 o'clock, 7.30 at night.

I was thinking around 6.30 or something at the end of the day.

Of course, I was thinking I would interrupt.

I don't want him to walk out and get on the news show.

God damn it, before the men got home to work, they'd get home and watch their TVs on where they're getting splashes.

Maybe, maybe it's still too late to make the 6, 7 o'clock news.

Maybe start at 5.30 and run the truth.

That's anyway.

Yeah, I don't know what the president said.

He said, I think maybe

seen them down here on Sunday morning at about 9.30 or 10.

But there's only one night.

I'd rather make the Sunday night news than I would the... Or if you can see them Sunday morning at 9.30 or 10, the other time the scene would be Saturday evening at 7.30 or

Well, I mean, where would they go with the story?

Absolutely.

Have them coming this way.

Show them right out to his car.

By the time he gets up to the, you know, he'd have to call a press conference up there.

should arrive this way.

No pictures.

Absolutely no pictures.

No pictures.

No, I mean, no, absolutely not.

No albums at all.

Montez got the message today that the baker was excluded.

That's the best work out he got, the baker.

No person saying anything about it.

We can't back off.

I mean, the problem that we have, of course, which Bazaar is worried about, is that Cox is a goddamn thing that we might not be able to do the Constitution test.

But Bazaar agrees that if I got the papers, I wouldn't turn them over to him.

Oh, actually.

Huh?

Actually.

Because what would happen?

No, he thinks, he doesn't think that you'd lose.

Constitution test.

He thinks we could give up something in the Cox Confrontation, which is immaterial, to strengthen your hand in the Constitution.

If it got pushed in.

But I think if the documents probably would, the confrontation of Cox on documents would provide the best basis for this job.

Perhaps to inspire some.

I don't think there's, we should not start second guessing our strategy.

I mean, it seems so obvious.

On this, on this thing, that's what Laird, and apparently even Harlow were thinking.

How could we selectively release?

Was that the discussion this morning?

Selectively release?

It doesn't know what I was questioning.

I mean, that's just great.

That, we considered that last week and decided, no, didn't we, Al?

Isn't that really not true?

If we were going to do that, we should have decided it then.

We wrote a bad letter, a bad letter.

Mr. President, Mr. President.

That's why Jared got up and had to go out as strong as he did to get that lead.

If we would have anyway moved an inch, these guys want nothing more than to show a weakening or a cave.

They even, you know, just can't even allow them to put that on the earth.

That's exactly right.

That's why you're very smart on journey.

That was impressive to me.

The young action types on your staff and the lawyers worked hard and were elated at the strong position you took.

But the old wise men.

Sage politicians.

Blair and Harlow, there's no evidence that they participated.

But there's also little evidence

Boy, it's out.

We're going to stick right until it comes out of the high water.

Now, do you realize the position we're in?

They're going to claim we're out.

And now the next thing you see, they've struck out on Dean.

Mitchell did well.

Well, let's just do that.

You have only one choice, and that is an unacceptable choice, and that is to let someone from the outside come in.

Because let's say you release select material.

First of all, they don't know what to ask for.

you release selectively, and obviously we're not going to release anything that's going to incriminate if it was there, who's to say you haven't buried the body, shredded the paper, we've had time to go through them and eliminate any incriminating evidence.

So what do you gain?

Nothing.

You simply are in the same position with them, okay?

So basically, let the world know, let the country think that we are sitting there.

But Mr. President, there's no way to prove otherwise.

See, there's no way to prove otherwise.

You can cut the hell out of that argument.

Because once you would release selectively, then the next charge would be that they destroy it.

The only way that we can possibly let them have papers is to let them go through.

The only way.

Now, the other way, Mr. President, is...

If we released information, which was to our benefit, then you still have the same charge shredded that was not to our benefit.

So there's only one choice, as I see it.

Now, you don't make the decision, you know, based on emotion.

It's a reality.

They know all of it.

You have to look at the notes.

I did.

September 15th.

I wrote this show.

The migrating race.

I did never say that.

You heard the thing, John, I heard Bob told me you've been doing a great job.

What do you know?

No one said, according to all of us, I said, John, I understand you've been having a heavy load for coming here.

He told us, really great, all the events, except for Rachel's appointment.

And I said, buddy, you've run over me.

Very gentlemanly.

I'm very decent with senators.

By God, the day has passed, and I had to leave the behavior.

They're getting the hell out of here.

And she agreed.

It was a very tough conversation, but it was real.

It was great.

And toward the last, I said, well, we'll discuss this as adults.

And he said, I like those people.

I said, just like you.

I said, well, yes, I have a son.

I was just thinking in my mind, with the committee, there's not a battle of compromise.

There's not?

No.

With the committee, we are not fighting a battle of compromise.

Oh, no, no.

We've been compromising, and they killed us.

Practically all of us.

We've survived.

But you remember, they said the state would jump ahead of them.

You know, they have velocity.

That's done.

It's going to be more than just the committee.

They've drawn the sword.

All right.

Olin was right on target today.

Good for him.

But I appreciate it, because I don't see him much.

I will look at him.

If you told Ron about the potential problems he may have here, I started to .

You are not to tell his body, but in about 20 minutes, I have to.

I don't know where you're going to get an x-ray, and I don't want to know.

It's right down the street.

I've been there.

But I'll tell you, if the President of the United States is seen going in a naval x-ray thing, and some little technician leaks that out of there, or that gets leaked out, that can do very funny, crazy things, and it's worse.

Robert, you're going to confirm it.

I understand.

I don't know.

I understand.

You see what we're saying here?

At this junction is advanced.

I have a can't afford to get sick.

And that's what it is.

So I have to do cognitive programs.

There are a couple observations I would make.

First of all, the most important thing is that he can't afford to get sick.

Secondly, we cannot, we don't want to announce it actually, obviously.

But we've got to handle this very clearly.

If it comes out.

Absolutely.

It would be wrong for us to say,

If you don't have viral pneumonia,

should not announce the x-ray.

That's why I think the x-ray should be done in great privacy.

Do you see?

Because if... Well, I don't want to burden you with it.

My view is keep the x-ray private.

If he has viral pneumonia, we say he's been diagnosed with it.

We still mention nothing about the x-ray.

We just say he won't be spending, you know, three times or three days or whatever it is recuperating it.

But that is, I guess, wherever...

If it is not diagnosed that way, you keep that private.

Because if you get, if we announce the fact that he's been there or he's gone.

Yeah, that's right.

How secure is it?

It's about as secure as you can.

What I meant is it's as secure as the people who took the X-ray.

Nobody knows that you're coming except one man.

The others know there's a man coming.

It's difficult.

Now, there'll be people who'll see you.

There'll be people who'll see the print.

No, but no.

My point is, well, if you take them over here to the disabled hospital, it's actually the thing where we...

There ain't no other place to go?

No, we all have exits there.

You can't bring the machine here.

No, sir.

You don't want to walk...

I don't know, because it will not give us a detailed one.

My point is, you don't want to walk them through that bottom part where people are all clustered around waiting.

Well, see, it's about six feet away from you.

Is there a way that we can work it out so we don't have the wife of the PIO officer of Fort Bennett sitting there and would, you know?

There's a way that we do not have to go through that.

That's right.

So we can campus and land and we do not have to go through that main part.

That's correct.

But somebody will see us in town.

Your current limit of any such diagnosis is that, uh, you still need to stop it, huh?

So, um, why not?

I still don't have a response.

Well, I know, but you still, you still just need to hide and protect the rails.

Uh-huh.

We haven't noticed the rails yet.

We haven't seen them yet.

And the change was there.

Why the hell are we taking the x-ray?

Because we want to see how expensive it is.

Well, let me tell you what I decided.

I decided that if it's anything that has any consequences of seriousness, then I'm not going to go through any facade of covering the places.

So what I want to do, if it is that, I guess I don't want to do it tonight.

Or do I?

No, I should go tonight.

What do you think?

As far as announcing it?

No, if you announce it, go to the hospital.

Because I decided that I'm not going to stick around in the damn White House.

And I mean it.

That's me.

We discuss it, possibly, because this would be the safest thing to do.

So I'd like to do it.

Yes, sir.

I would like, if we can, to go to Walter Reed rather than the other place.

You know, like the other two, right?

Our guys there tell us that.

There's a lot of construction work out there.

I can't hold that many places in mind.

Okay.

Well, precisely, that's...

That's very good.

It's the best.

My point is, if you find something tonight, your view is that we should go tonight.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

And you realize what we're dealing with.

Yes.

I agree with the question that if you want to go.

Plus the fact you don't want to go immediately from that entrance.

Oh.

I think you'd come back here and then we'd make the announcement

I mean, this is the, if the President of the United States goes to the hospital with mild...

I said, no, sir.

I'm not saying this is a negative.

I'm just pointing out that this is what... Well, it has to be.

Most presidents have gone to the hospital with either a stroke or a heart attack.

Well, that's right.

Actually, President Johnson did go to the hospital with a bad cold once.

It turned out it was a good thing.

The question is not how we handle it publicly.

I just want to say that we don't want to burden the president with this, but when he goes, we announce it.

We never will benefit by it.

know what it is, don't you agree, Al?

You will have to give a briefing.

Okay, I will have to give a briefing.

Don't talk about it.

No, he never does.

These are things I've stopped.

These are things that temperature may be better, but how long did you say?

The progress is good and so forth.

It happens in a precautionary nature.

What we do is the best thing of all, we'll sit down and write a short statement and read it, and that's all.

Sorry, gentlemen, that's all I have to say.

My view is you'd better start thinking ready.

Because I decided myself that if I'm in the residence, let's take another alternative.

If the x-ray shows minimal or nothing, you still have some conduction in your lungs.

If you have a little bit of fever, you could still go to Camp David where we could save you.

If it's fire on the moment, get the hell to the hospital.

That's what I do.

I can't take it with a low-grade paper.

It's not too good an idea.

I'd be better off staying here.

I'd be exposed to the weather and everything up there.

You know, there are different problems.

Also, not for damn work.

I just think everyone would feel better if it's anything like that for the person to be in a hospital under good, constant care.

If you have it low-grade

It's got to be described as a high rate.

But Rob, what could you describe it?

Well, we started out at 101.

That started out at 101.

What do you call it right now?

What I mean is, I don't know.

I'm just a fever.

If you don't have viral pneumonia, specifically, what the hell else can you call it?

Well, he hasn't said yet, but I'd like this as a piece of clutch.

Why would you give him a clutch?

I don't know.

Supposedly, the lung is not a clutch.

Nothing is found at all, my attorney.

Nothing is found except the fact that I just don't feel well.

I got the flu or something like that.

All right.

I just don't have it.

I'm suffering from an acute virus.

That's right.

This is what happened.

With a high fever.

102 is a high fever.

I'd say it was an acute virus.

As Al knows, there's another case in California.

I didn't go to a hospital with an acute virus.

I think to be in the White House with an acute progress when you can't see anybody is not a good position to be in.

The federal people feel better if you're under care.

Did the ambulance tire you?

No, it didn't.

I should have asked.

It doesn't tire me any more than any other ambulance.

But in the event of that, it is something that I'm going to deal with.

Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't feel very well.

Okay, that's perfectly fair to bring the guy.

Probably.

I should get him to the hospital.

I should get him to the goddamn hospital and fly around there.

And one thing, if I go, I do want to, I want either, if I go, I don't want those, I don't mind those carvings, but I want Manolo out of the picture.

Right, sir.

So that if I push the button or something, he can come.

Right, sir.

Well, or must.

I'm going out to the discussion every exercise and waste of time.

Well, you make whatever medical decision you make, I don't want to, but it's far better to get a diagnosis so we know where we are.

Say, I think it was only 101.

You can fudge that a little bit.

We'll work it out.

I mean, we'll be accurate.

No, I took it myself.

I understand.

But you see, Walter, if the president goes directly to Bethesda and we are unable to say why,

They wouldn't be ready yet.

It's all 76.

So if it's just a virus, my inclination is to go, I don't know, thinking of the PR aspects, right?

People don't go to a hospital for a virus.

They stay at home.

Yes, they do, sir.

They do, sir.

Yeah, that just sounds like a hospital situation.

It's got to be one where the people are convinced that they ought to go to the hospital.

And you've got to say, quite frankly,

this hopefully will be as a bible the president does feel bad he feels weak he has a high fever this afternoon the president was diagnosed by his physician of having a high-grade virus and he's running a high fever as a result

don't want it anyway.

All the time the president will ever be happy.

All the time.

I think it would have to say, honestly, that the President accepted the meeting and was thrown back into the bank, you know.

I don't know if that's right.

Nixon, Haig & Ziegler on Watergate scandal and Ervin Committee

AI Summary

Audio

Transcript (AI-generated)

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on July 12, 1973

Cite this conversation