Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 15 › Conversation 015-111

Nixon phone call with Brock on Tax Reform Act and Campaign Finance Reform

Tuesday, November 23, 1971 · 11:43 AM–11:47 AM ET · White House Telephone ·4 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  White House operator;  Brock, WilliamConversation015-111 onTape 15 (tape position 03:31:48–03:35:33)StartTuesday, November 23, 1971 at 11:43 AMEndTuesday, November 23, 1971 at 11:47 AMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 015-111 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon called Senator William Brock to offer birthday wishes and express appreciation for his legislative support. The two discussed the potential presidential veto of a pending tax bill, specifically focusing on the constitutional and political concerns surrounding the inclusion of federal campaign financing. Nixon argued that such financing would subvert party structures and harm the political process, while Brock agreed that a veto might force Congress to pass a more focused tax bill containing only essential economic provisions.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello.
Good morning.
I don't know how a man as busy as you can take time out to have a birthday, but my friend, but Timmons was telling me, he says, you know, the senator's 41 today.
And I says, oh God, he can't be that old.
Well, bless you.
But how you doing, boy?
I'm doing fine.
You've been making some fine speeches, believe me, and we appreciate your...
strong sport.
Thank you for saying so.
Well, I mean every word of it.
That was a tough vote yesterday.
But I met this morning with, you know, I meet occasionally with Scott and Griffin, you know, and had them for breakfast.
Scott recommends a veto if it comes down this farm, do you?
Yes, sir.
Even though it means that we lose the tax bill?
I wouldn't do it on the premise that the
the political implications of that adverse, Mr. President.
I don't honestly think they are.
I think we...
The tax bill.
The tax bill itself is, I think, an atrocity.
Oh, it is, yes.
You really do.
The whole thing.
I don't see how...
I think it can do you more damage than good.
I hope the House will exercise a little more judgment.
It won't.
They're going to leave the political thing in, Bill.
And that will change the whole constitutional system in this country.
That's really what it gets down to.
It's just plain immoral to tax the people of this country to finance candidates for whom they have no support.
You just cannot do that.
And despite the fact that they do it and they're supposed to check it off, it doesn't work that way, does it?
They don't individually, they aren't making a conscious decision with regard to a candidate.
They don't know who he is yet.
That's right.
That's exactly right.
That's right.
They're buying a pig and a poke.
Of course.
Of course, particularly with the non-incumbents.
And, of course, it'll go on, let me say, as you know, to House and Senate, as sure as we sit here.
Yes, it will.
And if I were a House or Senate member, boy, on the Democratic side, I'd be very concerned about it because it just means that they're going to be financing their opponents.
Do you realize that?
Yes, sir, I do.
And I think, too, that something that wasn't really adequately explored in the debate is
The basic immorality of any federal financing is that it perpetuates the status quo.
By giving $20 million to one man as a non-income, it allows him to totally subvert the party structure all the way down to the state level.
He can own that party, not just for that election, but for years.
Let me ask you, if we veto, do you think that the Congress will then come up with maybe the...
The excise tax and the investment tax credit and the personal exemption, in other words, a thinned-down bill.
Yes, sir, I did.
Some think they will have to.
Well, in any event, I'm considering it.
I want you to know we'll see what your brave men in the House do.
We've got some good ones over there.
Yeah.
And they'll do a good job if they care.
Yeah.
i'm sure you uh you uh enjoyed our my little confrontation with your friend mr meaning i was i don't think i've been that depressed in a long time i i was i have it so ingrained in me mr president that you thought was great for him i think it was great politically i mean i was great i i enjoyed it i mean uh he was he was acting like that and so we had a fine but
I don't think he did himself any favors.
No.
Or his group.
Yeah.
I think it was an embarrassment to the whole movement.
You came out very well.
I think you have yourself just beautifully.
I'm very proud of you.
Bill, go home tonight and tell your wife that I told you to take the night off, okay?
Very good.
All right.
Thanks.
Bye.

NARA Description

On November 23, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and William Brock talked on the telephone from 11:43 am to 11:47 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 015-111 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 15-111

Date: November 23, 1971
Time: 11:43 am - 11:47 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with the White House operator.

     William E. Brock, III

The President talked with Brock.

[See also Conversation No. 623-5]

     Birthday greetings
          -William E. Timmons
     Appreciation for Brock's support
         -Speeches

     Vote on campaign contributions
          -The President's meeting with Robert P. Griffin and Hugh Scott
          -Possible veto
                -Tax Bill
          -Constitutional issue
          -Public consciousness
          -Party structure
                -Federal financing

     Congressional action
         -Excise tax
         -Investment tax credit
         -Personal exemption

     George Meany
          -Reactions to confrontation with the President

Also recorded on November 23, 1971

  • 015-110 11:40 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 11:40 am and 11:43 am.
  • 623-004 11:40 AM · 5 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:40 am and 11:43 am.
  • 623-005 11:43 AM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon and William Brock met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:43 am to 11:47 am.
  • 015-112 11:47 AM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 11:47 am and 11:56 am.
  • 015-113 11:47 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 11:47 am and 11:56 am.
  • 623-006 11:47 AM · 27 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, White House operator, and Chalmers P. Wylie met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:47 am to 12:20 pm.
  • 015-114 11:56 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone from 11:56 am to 11:58 am.
  • 015-115 12:20 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:20 pm and 12:30 pm.

All 49 conversations from November 23, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 015-111, November 23, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/015-111 (accessed September 18, 2026).