Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 38 › Conversation 038-159

Nixon phone call with Kleindienst on Daniel Ellsberg and National security

Wednesday, April 25, 1973 · 8:20 PM–8:23 PM ET · White House Telephone ·3 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kleindienst, Richard G.Conversation038-159 onTape 38StartWednesday, April 25, 1973 at 8:20 PMEndWednesday, April 25, 1973 at 8:23 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 038-159 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Attorney General Richard Kleindienst discuss legal tactics regarding the ongoing Daniel Ellsberg trial, specifically focusing on how prosecutor David Nissen should handle Judge William R. Byrne, Jr. The two men strategize on emphasizing the national security implications of the case to the court while pushing for a post-trial hearing to address concerns regarding tainted evidence. Additionally, the conversation briefly touches upon political anxieties regarding the potential for presidential impeachment and the vice presidency of Spiro T. Agnew.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello?
Yes, sir.
Nick.
Yes, sir.
Did you get your call to go to Nason?
Yes, I did.
What did you point out to him?
Well, I pointed out to them, you know, the essential nature of it.
What their strategy is right now is to try to persuade the judge that we ought to have this as a trial hearing.
No one can tell the case is over until we have a hearing on this.
making the basic representation that no evidence came into our possession.
Let me say one other thing.
I don't know how you can get this to the judge, but I think it's very important for him to know that this is a national security investigation of the highest importance it really is.
You know that, and I know it.
And that's what we would intend to do.
But our primary objective is to
You'll downplay it.
You'll file over, have a post-trial hearing.
A post-trial for the purpose of what?
Well, to determine whether there was any tainted evidence.
Well, that's the time to do it.
Or do you agree?
I don't know.
Well, we need the disclosure of the judge now.
What we want to do is to say, judge, here it is.
No information came to the department under the law.
We can't make that determination.
We mean this to your attention.
We would like the trial to go ahead and continue.
If there's a leak of acquittal, that ends it.
If there's a writing guilty, then we'll have a free trial hearing to determine whether there was any taking evidence.
Now, on that point, though, and the acquittal and the arrest doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference, but the main point, Dick, is I just want Neeson to know that this is
Very important national security investigation, which it was.
He has been informed of that.
You get the point, do you?
Good deal.
How it's played for this first go-around of the judge, I think we have to just use our tactics here.
You mean Neeson will tell the judge, right?
Yes, he will.
You've got it across very strong to him that this is terribly important.
Yes, I do.
Okay.
Sleep well, boy.
Same to you.
All right.
See you there, Mr. President.
What the hell?
You know, people say they're peach depression.
Well, then they get agnew.
What the hell?
Is that all right?
There's not going to be anything like that, old boy.
All right, boy.
All right.
Good night, sir.

NARA Description

On April 25, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Richard G. Kleindienst talked on the telephone from 8:20 pm to 8:23 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-159 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 38-159

Date: April 25, 1973
Time: 8:20 pm - 8:23 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Richard G. Kleindienst.

[See also Conversation No. 430-39]

     Watergate
          -Kleindienst’s call to prosecutor David R. Nissen in Daniel Ellsberg case
                -Strategy for handling Judge William R. Byrne, Jr.
                      -National security
                      -Post-trial hearing
                -National security investigation
                                               -88-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                      (rev. January-2011)

                                                            Conversation No. 38-159 (cont’d)

           -Impeachment
                -Spiro T. Agnew

Also recorded on April 26, 1973

  • 038-157 7:46 PM · 8 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 7:46 pm to 7:53 pm.
  • 038-158 7:53 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 7:53 pm and 8:20 pm.
  • 430-037 7:53 PM · 36 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 7:53 pm and 8:20 pm.
  • 430-038 7:53 PM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 7:53 pm and 8:20 pm.
  • 430-039 8:20 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Richard G. Kleindienst met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 8:20 pm to 8:23 pm.
  • 038-160 8:23 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 8:23 pm and 9:07 pm.
  • 430-040 8:23 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 8:23 pm and 8:41 pm.
  • 430-041 8:23 PM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 8:23 pm and 8:41 pm.

All 73 conversations from April 26, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 038-159, April 26, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-159 (accessed September 18, 2026).