On January 5, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at Camp David from 7:38 pm to 7:58 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 160-002 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Well, did you survive the day?
Oh, yes.
Anything new since I talked to you?
Not really, no.
I read through your transcript, and Timmons, I think, was absolutely right in his analysis.
That was brilliantly put.
And apparently that is, of course, that's not for public release.
Well, Ziegler was supposed to put the whole thing, you know, he gave it out to the press.
Well, not your actual statement, but he gave out...
He quoted it.
He quoted from it, yeah.
He did well.
Yeah.
The Star put kind of a downbeat twist on it.
I didn't say it that way.
I said I'm not going to say optimistic or pessimistic, either way.
Well, it's a bad headline, but that's only the Star.
I don't think...
I think the wires that I read played it very, very well this afternoon.
Ziegler ought to handle something like that with a star, you know what I mean?
I've got to call into him to tell him that he ought to call him and just raise hell with that goddamn headline right there.
Yeah, because the actual quote was, I am not going to say this.
be, you know, maybe Ziegler didn't hear what I said.
No, I read Ziegler's transcript also.
He said it right, what'd he say?
Let me find it here.
No, I know he wouldn't have gotten that wrong.
No, no, no, no.
Let's see.
Oh, damn it.
That doesn't make any difference.
He can't really handle these things like that because...
If they're going to give you a gig, they're going to give you a gig, you know.
Yeah, well, it's only the headline, you know.
And that's typical.
The Star really has miserable headline writers.
All through the campaign.
On economic news, they were always the worst.
That's right.
So we won't be able to do that.
Well, I think all hell should be raised with him on that.
I really think it's got to be done, and Ziegler's got to start getting real tough with him.
He loves to do it.
Well, I will talk to Ron.
Right.
I will talk to Ron.
But I think the general...
The Senate is still acting up, I see.
You know, that really, about an eight cut off on the 20th.
Now, what the Christ do they think that does to your negotiating position?
Yeah, that's right.
In the name of God, they think they're doing.
Well, of course, they're not going to do it, but that's...
I know, but you know what I mean.
Oh, sure.
Apart from that, though, I think we ought to get a start.
I don't know.
Henry is so...
Lacking an understanding of PR.
If he'd have just said what I said today to the leaders earlier, I mean, that says the whole thing, doesn't it?
Yes, it does.
And even take up Alex Scali.
He can draw from that.
Well, I sent this actual transcript of what you said, and...
i've told john he can't you know can't use this transcript but that he should yes he can well he cut out the cia stuff to infiltration stuff to bill gill and he's doing that with the print people right and he's going to use this as the basis of talking it's beautifully stated and bill's right on that ending my god but the point that i make is this that our people chuck have got to be a little bit more aggressive about such things i don't know i uh bill you know is so diffident downbeat and
they're all there and they say wasn't that fine but they don't do a goddamn well i'm going to talk to hold them on monday about uh got to do you know what i mean if they think something is within why the hell don't the leaders do something why doesn't bill do something you know what i mean instead of just you know sitting there a leg in their face well maybe i haven't had any report on how they did with scott and ford tonight at five or how henry did but uh well but uh we can't complain now give me no for damn sure the democrats though they're playing this just
partisan wise and they've got to be brutally attacked for it yep i agree it really is it's gotten to the point where they've got to be attacked i suppose it doesn't do any good to attack them before the talks on monday well i don't think it'll i don't know they really are playing as politically aren't they yes i don't think mr president though that uh i talked to jay lovestone this afternoon and i said jay his judgment's pretty good what do you think yeah and i said his judgment is superb i said what should we do and he said well the democrats
are doing you the greatest favor of of your lives why and he said because they look like such asses and he said they're going to be made to look bad in the long pool or you know chase whatever you whenever you work with that and he said i don't think they're having any impact on the public he said i what's sending her think you haven't heard from him i have not talked to him this week to have my assistant take care probably not well you ought to give him a call
And he's probably not getting much on this thing.
It isn't that big in the country some way.
But I don't know why the hell these guys are voting this way then.
That's what I can understand.
That's the Democratic... You're telling me the mail isn't that big?
No.
What in the hell is the mail?
I think part of the problem is that we are very weak on the congressional relations side.
I really do.
Well, one thing we... You know, after the campaign, I began to dismantle the attack apparatus.
I mean, we used to have regular meetings, and I had... That's right.
...Fawson and Scali and... That's right.
Barker and Karolikas and all these guys in every day.
And we had an attack operation that was just going like a machine.
We just pressed the buttons in the morning.
Well, I told him on the day, I said, what the hell have we got?
And then he said that, well, it didn't make any difference because the Congress stuff isn't very good anyway.
Meaning that, you know, the percentage that they do.
But goddammit, it's better to have something rather than nothing.
Well, we disbanded a lot of that.
You know, we had a fellow who was going up to the hill every day with speeches and stuff.
We'd
And in cutting back?
Well, they say that they don't get them in, but you got in some, didn't you?
Oh, hell yeah.
We had about a, well, we didn't get them in.
It's just like everything else.
We would write statements for Rainwater when he was the VFW.
That's right, I know.
The CDs, the car, and those guys.
Boy, you know, you see our leaders, and that Griffin, good God, why we worked so hard for him.
He's just a...
He's a nothing.
Yeah, I'm sorry to say.
There's just nothing there.
I mean, he just, you know, looks like an old man and he's only 40, 50 years old.
Christ, it's awful.
Our people really are a sad bunch of sacks.
Well, I don't, on the question of whether we get it out, we get it out, we were getting it out on the average of about a third of the time.
In other words, you'd put out a statement and sometimes the wires wouldn't take it and the
papers wouldn't print it every now and then we get them on tv so it's a yeah you know it's like every other it's like everything in politics you fight for the inches and sometimes you get an inch and sometimes you pick up 10 yards but it's well i think i think you ought to have a little talk chuck with alderman well i talked about tonight yeah that uh and because i called him and he was over in the gym and i didn't and before i left but so i didn't reach him
But I was just going to talk to him a little about this, because here we are, and I wonder what the hell is our capability?
What the Christ are these people doing?
And I go over there, and nothing happens after the breakfast.
Sigler makes sort of a half-assed statement to the press, you know, and that's it.
You know, we could do better than that.
I think we could do better.
Well, I do, too.
I think one thing, Mr. President, that we are all too tired, I guess.
Yeah, there's a little bit of that, I must say.
I've been...
getting home at 9 30 and 10 this week every night i know you are but god the others ought to be doing something jesus what we've i tell you what we did and i this isn't this is not a mistake this is a good thing what we did is after the campaign we had a pretty big apparatus here that
that I was running every day, and it was working.
You know, we were clubbing McGovern.
We were murdering him.
I know it.
We ought to have an apparatus now, I can see, to club the damn...
I think we might have to reinstitute it, despite these Democrats in the Congress.
They are acting so goddamn partisan, and you can't get it from Jerry Ford, and you can't get it from...
As soon as Bill Baruti is over here, then there's no point in building another one around me because I'm only here for a matter of weeks.
Can he build one?
Yes, sir.
He's good at that.
Lawson's good.
Well, you see, what we can do is go back to what we used to do, and that is that
9.15 in the morning, we would meet and develop the attack strategy for the day.
And Ken Clawson was a part of that.
The thing is that Bob, I don't think really knows what went on there enough.
He doesn't understand how effective it was.
He never knew because I never bothered Bob with that kind of stuff.
By God, something was being done right.
That's the point.
Well, I do know that every day we had somebody out speaking and it was getting pressed and getting on TV.
So I know the thing was working.
Sure.
Bob was not part of that.
But you see,
Yeah, the half-assed situation where you leave it to Ehrlichman and to Schultz and to Kissinger.
Well, Jesus Christ, all of them think about substance.
They never think about getting it across to the public.
And they're too busy, really.
I know, but they're substance men.
Yeah.
Except for Ehrlichman.
He's got little understanding of things.
Yeah, but I met with John this afternoon on a couple of other things, and my God, he was so tired and deluged with things.
I mean, he's got a lot of responsibilities now.
It's a very...
it's like henry discouraged no not discouraged it's just it's just you know you stuff so much into the animal you can only do so much but i think what we need to do and i we shouldn't be discouraged about this week because we we expended all our energies in the campaign and i think well if we can as a matter of fact with scally doing what he did scally saved it it was a very successful
And Kissinger has not wanted us to do anything this week.
And frankly, we haven't geared up.
The one thing that in all the reorganization and getting things changed, we have not geared up the attack apparatus enough backup.
But maybe we'll have to re-examine that, of course.
We got with her getting out and so forth, you can get that facade out of there.
But you need about eight or ten gut fighters around someplace.
That's what you really get down to.
Oh, you don't need that.
And without, I mean, Haldeman...
is too busy with other things.
Ehrlichman won't do it.
Schultz doesn't understand it.
Asch doesn't understand it.
Kissinger doesn't understand it.
You see my point?
Yes, sir, I do.
You've got a few gut fighters around there.
Well, it's a... Baruti's a gut fighter, and Clausen is.
Now, who else we got?
Zegler will do what he's told.
Who else?
Dick Howard, who's been working as my deputy, knows all the ropes.
He's very good, and he's a quiet...
He's young, but he's very quiet, very aggressive.
Good.
Keeping him, are we?
Yes, sir.
Good.
Trying to...
thinking of other things but i think i keep everybody everybody that's worth a damn keep he's good uh so you've got buchanan of course he's the only one in the research group price and the rest aren't worth a shit but you see buchanan's been totally occupied with his book yep and uh that's what that's a loss to us i think the book is not worth that much trouble but what the hell
But you see, that's one of the problems is everybody, and I... Everybody's busy with other things.
Yeah, right now they have been.
And during the campaign, the attack hit first priority, so it was easy to... Well, that first priority, and also, Chuck, you've got to realize, Buchanan was enormously important in that attack.
He sure was.
He produced something.
What the hell does Price produce?
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
Price's office.
What does it produce?
Good messages and... Yeah, fine.
But what does it produce on the attack side?
Oh, nothing, no.
You see?
That's the thing you've got to tell Haldeman.
You've got to have somebody on the attack side.
Uh-huh.
well i agree i agree and the right guy to be the uh focal point for it uh is broody because he's he does that but he can't write it so you got to get some people around buchanan who can write we need a writer we need a guy you really don't need you don't need a big step you need a writer you need somebody to get the stuff up to the hill you need somebody to distribute not only the hills up to the the outside people and the rest i really think though that you know the
the irresponsibility of the Senate group.
I think Love Stone's comments are rather interesting, aren't they?
Yeah, I think so.
He doesn't think it's having that much effect on the country.
No, he said George Meni is going to have an executive council and he thinks he might prime them to make a real blast if they keep this up.
He believes that there will be a counter-reaction if they keep it up.
He thinks they're really making a mistake.
He really does.
Yes, sir.
He thought they were getting way out on a limb.
With any event, let's don't let our little boys...
sit down here and sort of play substance and reorganization, all that sort of thing, and not fight the real battle, huh?
Well, that's...
Yes, sir, I agree with your point.
I've always believed in fighting that real battle.
I mean, that's where, to me, the game is won.
As a matter of fact, though, on the warshoes, I stated it here today to these stupid leaders.
When you put it in those words, how the hell can you disagree with it?
You cannot disagree with it.
What the Christ do you want to do?
Do you want to bug out, or do you want a peace with honor?
That's what it is.
Do you want to end the war, or do you just want to get out?
You put it brilliantly today, Mr. President.
I thought that was...
I read...
I mean, your remarks are absolutely, absolutely superb.
I mean, I see... See, Pimmons didn't understand it was that, and neither did Ziegler.
Neither one of them really understood the effectiveness of the remarks.
Ziegler particularly didn't understand it.
He was...
He didn't get the right notes, really.
He told me what he was going to put out, and I just shrugged my shoulders.
He's just doing the best he can.
But he doesn't understand.
He missed, for example, Chuck, the last line.
But you agree?
And that's the punchline.
Well, but he missed it, didn't he?
He didn't use that.
Yeah, he missed that.
He did.
Because, you see, I told you he wouldn't do it because he didn't think it was hot news.
That's what I would have used.
Well, that's the line that gets them.
Because what you're really saying is, look, boys, the president is taking the responsibility.
And if it goes bad, he's the one who will take the blame.
I don't want to hold you, but let me say, you get on.
I mean, Bob's got enormous worries and responsibilities and so forth.
But on the other hand, he's got to quit worrying about reorganization, who's going to be the ambassador and all the rest, and get the hell on to the real thing.
now there's one there's a battle now on this issue he's got to drop everything else forget the goddamned inauguration who cares who's going to be the symphony i don't give a damn you know what i mean paul that's nothing well i think that's okay that's a problem i mean everybody is worrying about things that are on our non our non sequiturs they're nothing yeah that's right don't you agree i do now in the campaign we all concentrate in the campaign now we come straight in this issue
And Bob and the rest have got to get the hell off of their other things and start doing this and fighting the Congress, kicking their balls, you know, and you'll win.
And basically, the problem is that we've got a few congressmen, and like tonight, some of these young guys, we're all for you, and we just wish somebody would speak up.
Christ Almighty, the problem is Jerry and what kind of leaders we got.
No leaders.
They're all whining and bitching about what kind of a job you're going to give Jack Miller.
Really.
Bob and John and all the rest, really, don't understand this whole thing.
Let me make three points, Mr. President.
One is that...
It's understandable they don't, because basically through the whole year prior to the election, I was doing this stuff, and we were getting 25%, 30%, 40% results, but that's... That's damn high for our side.
Yeah, you have to just hope every day you try, but when Rainwater or Besidis or Carr or somebody was on television,
It wasn't, they don't go on, I mean, and even the Congressman, Scott, they don't go on unless you write the stuff out.
You hand it to him, you say, here are the points to make.
That has to be orchestrated, and that's the area.
Now, secondly, I'll talk to Bob about that because we got into it today a little bit.
So why haven't we got the capability?
And I said, well, because we've let all the people go, and they're all, everybody else is all doing something else.
We disbanded the attack apparatus.
That's right.
It's easy enough for us to pull it back together.
It's going to take us a little effort.
I think we should.
But we can do it.
I think we should put it together, add to the White House staff, to the necessity, and Christ Almighty, they've got military aides and Secret Service that have run out of my ears.
And nobody that can do a goddamn thing.
That's what burns me up.
I told Bob that, and I said, look, you've got all sorts of secretaries and
aids and the rest and i said they none of them are worth a damn to me right that's really true the third point though which i think is very important mr president is that the posture we are in right now i think we came through the week all right the posture we're in right now
The build-up now over the weekend will be the expectations of the negotiations, and I think we're going to start to ride an upbeat on that.
Well, you don't want to build it up too much because it may fail.
On the other hand, they think like the star thing.
I'm not too worried about that where I say I'm not optimistic, but...
It was an inaccurate thing, and goddamn it, Ziegler should have been calling you or me, and here he is.
He's probably off to some press thing.
He does well, but he doesn't understand this sort of thing.
I really don't think that kind of a headline is an inaccurate description of what the hell I said.
I didn't say I was not optimistic.
I said I was not optimistic.
I just said...
If you'll read it carefully, I said, I'm not going to say that I'm optimistic or pessimistic.
I'm simply saying the hearing's gone.
Now, that is a wrong headline, and Ziegler ought to call and read their ass out on that.
If there's one thing he does, make him do that.
Will you do that?
Yes, sir, I'll definitely do it.
One other point, Mr. President, after we started keeping the log on Henry's calls, this is total confidence, because Henry should never know that we're doing this.
What'd you find out?
Well, we don't.
After we started keeping the log, we found Rolly Evans and Joe Kraft and Jerry Schechter and those kind of people.
Was Joe Kraft on the list?
Oh, yeah, January 2nd.
Joe Kraft, January 2nd?
Yeah.
You saw his column today.
Yeah, and how.
So you know where that comes from.
Right.
But we have not yet found the New York Times, the problem being that we didn't keep a log until I ordered it on January 1st.
I'll just keep the log from now on.
Now they're going to keep the log on people and phones, so we'll...
Right.
And incidentally, I want it on his private phone, too.
We can get that, can't we?
I think we can.
Sure.
God damn it, we get it through the FBI.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
The FBI is to keep the log on his phone.
That's all we want to know, who the hell he calls.
Now, of course he talked to Kraft.
You know God damn well he did.
But you see, the hypocrisy of it is that he was saying to me on that Sunday...
And we mustn't talk to anybody.
And then Christy picks up the phone and calls Joe Kraft.
So if... Sunday being... Well, Sunday was the 31st.
Yeah, so he called up Joe Kraft on Tuesday.
And Joe Kraft then writes an article yesterday that just knocks the bejesus out of it, which Henry...
indicated that now i think henry ought to be taken on on calling just say henry did you talk have you talked to craft yeah i can hit henry on that no i want you to ask him i said joe uh uh henry uh
Gee, this is a terrible article.
And if he lies on that, I want to know.
Will you do it?
Yes, sir, I can check on him.
It's very important that I know that.
I won't be able to get him tonight.
I'll have to probably get him in the morning.
Oh, God, no, I don't mean that tonight.
Sometime tomorrow, I'll say, in a very, you know, before, I don't want him to be too irritated before he goes to Paris.
I'll say, what the hell?
Did anybody in your shop, did you talk to Kraft?
He called him, or did Kraft call Henry?
No, he called Kraft.
It's an outgoing call.
He called Kraft.
I'll be goddamned.
See, the incoming, we couldn't even monitor all of it.
He called Kraft.
I'll be a son of a bitch.
We only know the outgoing, because the incoming, you can't always check.
That is unbelievable.
Have you told Haldeman?
No, no.
Tell him tomorrow.
I haven't.
Okay.
I haven't even told Haldeman we're checking him.
All right.
It's good that you're checking him.
Okay, well, don't let this be too downbeat.
As a matter of fact, we're looking pretty good.
Oh, I think we're great.
The thing works out.
We're going to kill these bastards.
But I may say that, and if it doesn't work out, we're going to blame these bastards.
I say we're going to kill them either way, Mr. President.
That's what Jerry Lofton was saying, wasn't he?
Yes, precisely.
He said they're setting themselves up.
They're putting themselves in a position where they can only lose.
Okay.
We'll kill them either way.
All right.
Okay.
Bye.