Nixon, Saxbe & Haig on Military draft and Vietnam War

17:20Good morning.
17:21All right.
17:22Bill, all right.
17:24All right.
17:25Well, you told me I got to run the Lord.
17:30Well, I'll tell you this.
17:50You know, he just left Henry, sir, but I'm very much aware of him.
18:01Yes, sir.
18:11I did have a picture of it.
18:14So what I wanted to see, no matter how much you know about a place, you have to be there.
18:18You gotta go back to get a feel for it.
18:21But it's really brought me to focus by this draft journey.
18:27Now, yesterday I talked an hour on this thing.
18:30Then I got into it in the summer.
18:33And I talked a great length yesterday on the problems that we have.
18:41Now, I personally feel that at the present time, there's such an anti-military attitude amongst the young people in this country.
18:47We've got to get the volunteers.
18:50I wish we could say it.
18:51Wish we could, yeah.
18:52But we're not.
18:53And I had an argument at a press conference with Washington.
18:57The war is over.
18:58They've got guns.
18:59I'm afraid not.
19:01Even though there are no contacts?
19:03Maybe the Corps.
19:04If there's one thing I learned from these people in Washington, I talked a lot about it.
19:10Their attitude is so anti-military.
19:13Sure, it's anti-authoritarian, but it also boils down to anti-military.
19:20They think they're incompetent, they think they're pompous, and they think they're evil.
19:26Now, this means that it's going to be a difficult time to turn this around and just make him honest is not the answer.
19:40you're going to find that the ones that really have the regard and the other people that want to get in, they're going to be the Marines and the Airborne and the people that lean on them, not the ones that love real long hair and the way they are.
19:57But this discussion boils down to there.
20:03I had a luncheon last week, and I had Ambassador Reichardt out as a host.
20:14I had 27 senators there, both sides.
20:19Reichardt said that if we welch on our deal in Vietnam, that we'll never be able to command the respect of any energetic
20:32I said, you know who he is?
20:35Sure, I know all about him.
20:36And I wouldn't expect it from him.
20:40No.
20:41But he said his pen.
20:42He liked to have his pen.
20:44And he said, you like to have your pen?
20:48Yes.
20:48Did you do too?
20:49I talked to Sarah just like this.
20:51I talked to Sarah just like this.
20:53They already believe that we have a double standard in this country.
20:57That is that we give credence to our commitments to Western Europe.
21:02let me wish off our commitments to, like, positive charity.
21:07In other words, that's truly, you know, this is the devil's test.
21:11It's true of the whole eastern complex.
21:15There's been a, basically, a sense of money out here, and it really goes back, really goes back to the Marshall Plan, and they have done it for me.
21:23They're what I call the half-worlds and the one-worlds.
21:27Don't forget the book, it's still a good word.
21:31I basically have a one-worlder than you are.
21:33The half-worlders were those that could see the danger in Europe, but didn't see it in Asia.
21:38Now where the hell have the wars come from, the last three wars?
21:40World War II came from Asia.
21:42Korea came from Asia.
21:44Vietnam came from Asia.
21:46And this country's got to wake up to the fact that you took the Canada policy to try to get along with the goddamn Europeans who are screwing us down on the dock when they have no reason to get along.
21:56And now I have one that looks to the future because, Bill, the name of this game, I'm sure you must be able to explain it, the name of this game, 20 years from now, when you're a kid to your age, is what you just said, isn't it?
22:07That's right.
22:08There will be 250 million Japanese down in Southeast Asia.
22:14There will be 300 million more that are pretty good people, the Indonesians, the Filipinos, and the rest, leaving out the Indians.
22:20The Pakistanis are hopeless.
22:22And that is going to be the game.
22:24That's why he threw this up.
22:26He threw this up the whole window.
22:28That's why he brushed our police system.
22:29I thought you'd be interested in what he had to say, because he is, he said, we've got to get out of here.
22:35Yes, I know.
22:36He said, we have to get out of here.
22:38He said, we should be done on deliberate good order.
22:41And he told the Senators this.
22:42He told the Senators this.
22:44He said, we have Japan right on the ground, just as you say, just like this.
22:50ready to make this decision as to whether to build that public area or not.
22:58And I said, I thank Curtis for saying that, hey, this is new value.
23:02But he said it has to be a donor work and be done so that they can say they lived up to the standards that they withdrew in order.
23:11All right.
23:12All right.
23:13So...
23:20It seemed to me that when we talk about our world commitments, and as you say, I talked yesterday on the floor for an hour, and I talked about 10 years ago now.
23:31All right, if we watch on this deal there, and that if by going to a volunteer army we can't support our commitments, and I don't think we can, and that we're going to have this unpleasantness because of this devaluation and Mansfield's attitude,
23:48We're going to let nature fly apart.
23:52We did this because in 1943 we found ourselves finally beginning to pull out of a very desperate situation.
24:00And we said, by God, this isn't going to happen again.
24:03We're never going to let these people build up to the point where they're going to endanger our safety.
24:08We're going to see that the wild man, the man on horseback, never gets turned loose again.
24:16And so we made these commitments after the war.
24:21Now, if we watch on our DLRs, we not only throw out and sell out the 50,000 that have died in Vietnam, but we sell out those people who died in World War II because we're right back where we started.
24:40And we're cutting Germany loose or allowing them to Finland that is because
24:45As a matter of fact, they'll be effective on the Germans, and on the British.
24:52And every European country has an American patriot in Vietnam, which would be enormous.
24:58Now, you know, the European press industry may not support us.
25:02They say it's very important that the United States carry this off without failure.
25:08That's what they do.
25:10Because they put in a record yesterday, in my speech, a statement by a German who said, we in Germany feel that when Americans are fighting in Vietnam, they're fighting for the West Berlin.
25:25You did?
25:26Yeah.
25:27That's in the record, the news article from the Chicago News article.
25:30Good, good.
25:32It's from the Chicago News.
25:33Well, it is a good news article.
25:37So, am I sure?
25:39I know what they do.
25:40Even the socials tell you that.
25:42But?
25:42Not just the conservatives.
25:44I'm worried.
25:45I had an argument with Bob Taft, and you don't have a better supporter than Bob Taft.
25:51is now believing that if we can have the Volunteer Army in 1964, or 74, we can have it in 1972.
26:03Now, what's going to happen in the Senate?
26:05Unless somehow we can turn this around, and we should look at my talk yesterday with Gravel on the floor.
26:13I tried to really harpoon him.
26:18I try to get time on it.
26:22But what they feel is, is one year we'll do it with 100,000 limitations.
26:25We said 150,000.
26:26That will run out in 72, an election year, and you're never going to get any Congress to extend it in an election year.
26:36Now, this is what's going to happen, and somehow we can turn this around.
26:42I can see it coming.
26:43You've got guys like Bob Shackle.
26:47Well, it works out in the 30s.
26:55Now, Gravedo has stated that he's going to filibuster it from yesterday until July the 30th.
27:03Now, I can't believe they messed it in.
27:05I'm trying to point out the fact that we're moving around for five weeks in a time of great crisis.
27:14But...
27:16I don't find any urgency there.
27:17What's going to happen if I get to feel it at all?
27:20We're only going to get a one-year extension, and that's going to put you so many years.
27:24Well, that's the important part.
27:28It's going to put you right on the hot spot in 1972.
27:33But I wish you'd have your people look into this because, and I think that we've got to play down the volunteer army aspect of it until we get this extension.
27:46Because people like Bob Tapper, Kelly's good, reliable people, are taking off very cold waters and let's kick Barry in on it.
27:59Dominic is in on it.
28:00I think it's a very nice concept for myself.
28:04The real question is, what's the word?
28:06That's the water before you dive in, don't you?
28:11Absolutely.
28:12Now, here's the fallacy of the damn thing.
28:16His commission said that they get a 70% re-up from these people.
28:21But what they didn't realize was that the people that are going to be in the first two years are not original volunteers.
28:29And you think they're people who win it because of the women.
28:33Sure.
28:33Now, after you once get volunteers, you're going to get a good re-up percentage.
28:38And another thing that the
28:40don't take into consideration is, it seems to me anyways, the fact that this anti-military attitude right now is growing so fast, Bill.
28:51And so now, by and by, though, the anti-military attitude is growing so fast, are Congressmen and Senators going to have the statesmanship that
29:01I don't know.
29:03I'm very disillusioned.
29:04I think part of our citizen burden is to bring the Vietnam thing already, so we have a few plans.
29:12So let me say, don't worry about deadlocking the rest.
29:16And for all of us, we have been around here a long time.
29:22But we've got to do it our own way.
29:26You know, you've got to do it in a way that we accomplish some of our other goals.
29:32And, uh, well, I think I have no real idea what you're doing.
29:35As your military professor, pretty soon, if there's not a force on the board, you're told you're focused on foreign land, and as you disengage, you're going to have to move around.
29:45My son, by the way, came home today, Saturday.
29:48Mother of a Marine, but he's a Marine Lieutenant, and thinks he's got the best platoon in the world.
29:54He's probably told platoon that, if you sir.
29:57First Marine Division.
29:58First Marine Division.
29:59They went out there and symbolically held them.
30:03Oh, God, they're great.
30:05They are great.
30:06And he was in a detached platoon in a combined operation north of Da Nang where they were moving every night and sleeping out and getting food drops.
30:17He got sick as hell two weeks before he got back.
30:20And it's the most gruesome story I've ever seen.
30:24They shot him.
30:25They shot him.
30:26The VC can't be.
30:30And they couldn't find him.
30:32So they made this round.
30:33See, they're trying to keep people out of terrain.
30:36They made this round and they drank water out of this dish.
30:40And here was this VC and cops.
30:42We'll have to fight this, please.
30:45Okay.
30:57I haven't seen him in a couple of years, I must tell you.
30:59I didn't have a hell of a way to find him, but... Is he going to come back fresh now?
31:04He's in there, and he'll get reassigned, and he's put in for Quantico.
31:12He's single, and he's 24 years old.
31:17What does he study?
31:19Well...
31:21No, no, he graduated from SNU, was in a platoon leader course.
31:27He's got a three-month degree and he wants to go to law school.
31:33But he's got a year and a half to go.
31:35Hell of a, hell of a good boy.
31:38Now, remind me of this.
31:40It used to be that you get these balls at a pen combat service.
31:46You got a couple around here, you know.
31:48They can be used, though, effectively in a few areas, don't you think?
31:51Absolutely.
31:52This is the guy that wrote the letter.
31:56Remember this?
32:09He wrote the letter that he couldn't see why he had to serve, but he'd go because if he didn't, somebody else would have to go.
32:19All right, now he turned around and he said they were doing an important mission there.
32:23He thought they were good and professional, and he turned me around.
32:30Now let me ask you a couple of questions about that.
32:40I used to be on my trips.
32:42The real progress in that country with all of its problems, inflation, corruption, the horror around that it has made.
32:50I mean, our guys have done quite a job, haven't they, to take those poor, miserable people.
32:56That society, the Marines, you know, their pacification program has been great.
33:00They've done a lot of very good things.
33:02We don't hear much about that.
33:03And I saw places where there was community action that...
33:09It would bring tears to your eyes what these people were trying to do.
33:12It's a little bit intense.
33:13Aren't the kids something?
33:14Yeah.
33:14The other three children?
33:16No.
33:16No.
33:18The cities are such cesspools.
33:21Saigon.
33:22Saigon.
33:24They're all...
33:26This is the evil of any civilization.
33:29It blossoms.
33:31Prostitution, drugs, everything.
33:32I know.
33:33VE, drugs.
33:34Yeah.
33:35The whole bit.
33:36Yeah.
33:38The strength of Vietnam is still a rural economy.
33:42But there are signs of prosperity.
33:44The outboard motors, the Hondas, the Gold Tees, the Timbros.
33:50What's a Gold Tee?
33:51Well, he fell into Vietnam.
33:54He gets enough money, he gets a Gold Tee.
33:56A Gold Tee?
33:57Oh, yeah.
33:58Here, that's a sign that he's arrived.
34:01Oh.
34:01You're supposed to be able to put in a gold one.
34:07But for the Panthers, if you've got a gold tooth, you know you have it made.
34:13But we expect you much.
34:19Can't tell people, take people out of the group who know nothing about government and expect them overnight to have everything, free election responsibility.
34:26Jesus Christ, we have our own problems.
34:28Look at Latin America.
34:29They all follow the American Constitution.
34:32Making a country in Latin America is making it today.
34:35The only one that's really making it at the moment is Brazil.
34:38And Brazil is making it with a silent dictatorship.
34:41You've got all of our, the Chileans are down the tube, the Peruvians are down the tube, the Bolivians are down the tube.
34:48Paraguay, of course, is a dictatorship.
34:52Argentina is in a hell of a shape.
34:54Colombia, Venezuela, they'll make it because of oil.
34:59There it is.
35:01Government is not easy.
35:02Take Africa.
35:03People talk about black Africa, all the new countries.
35:06You realize that there is no black country in the world today
35:11That is, that even reaches one-fourth the standard we set for Vietnam.
35:16There isn't one in which you have an elective government, sort of constitutional democracy.
35:23And there will not be, Bill, for a hundred years.
35:25That isn't because they're black.
35:27Because we understand the whites in Britain, for Christ's sake, they hate each other five or six hundred years ago.
35:33It took them a long time to develop up to that point.
35:37The French had a revolution system.
35:40The Germans, the rest, we talk about this, it isn't the superiority of the whites or any of that, it's simply the fact that people in various stages of development
35:52to realize that the highest form of it, we think, is constitutional democracy.
35:58But to get to that point, it takes you one hell of a long time.
36:02Plus, it's not only the highest of the hardest parts of construction.
36:05But here's what's happening with our young people.
36:07And here's what's happening in Congress.
36:09And I never thought it would happen.
36:12And that's it.
36:13And we're back to the average hour.
36:17We're looking at things and saying, well, we have to do this because this is the way that things should be.
36:24Well, we all know how things should be.
36:27And we all know that there shouldn't be war.
36:30And we all know that we should live in peace throughout the world.
36:34But name one period in history where reason has prevailed.
36:39Not for 10 or 20 or a generation, for one year.
36:44And we're living in an irrational, emotional world, and the do-gooders now all want to apply the reasonable, rational solution and say, well, this is the way it's going to be.
37:01Well, as a result, you get anarchy, and following anarchy, you get purity.
37:07This is the history, and if we aren't going to learn by history, we're going to repeat the same mistakes.
37:15That's why we can't be too high and mighty in looking at the so-called dictatorships and so forth.
37:21People say Iran, they ought to get rid of the Shah.
37:25Hell, they better keep the Shah.
37:27He keeps it together.
37:28Thailand, they basically have a government by the league.
37:33You better keep it that way.
37:36The only big city that seems to be solving its problem is the dictatorship.
37:41Chicago.
37:41Chicago.
37:45Yeah, I guess it's food.
37:47You're right, it is a dick-taker, sure.
37:48Dick-takers have been a dick-taker.
37:50Sure, it goes most mean, but effective.
37:52We ran, we ran all the bosses out of the cities because the newspapers couldn't run.
37:57That's right.
37:59And the newspapers.
37:59And the newspapers.
38:00A lot of towners have all out.
38:02So we've got headless giants.
38:03Yeah.
38:04In all of these cities that can't affect the lake at all.
38:07They don't look at the portals.
38:10Now let's see some, as you know, a very attractive guy, a very idealistic guy.
38:14New York's never had probably four men here.
38:16No.
38:17Not a reflection on him, because basically he does not have that particular kind of ruthlessness and so forth that New York needs in a man.
38:24Right.
38:25All that, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at,
38:40And really, if we could have had a Republican elected there because I can, now probably they'll put in somebody that we can't beat because it's 70% Democrat, the city, maybe 75.
38:53But this is what we demand.
38:56We demand democracy.
38:58And all we get from it is inefficiency and chaos.
39:05And God, what a tragedy that Dan Bailey is making things work there because he can fire the director of housing and the director of this, he can fire him.
39:21And if he says, if you don't do it, I'll kick you out.
39:26What a travesty on democracy that this should be happening here.
39:31But when he ran Jersey City, and when some of these people ran other cities, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Boston, they ran them.
39:41Why, sure, they ran them.
39:42You know, one thing I want to tell you.
39:55Even though, from your legal experience, that in any kind of a negotiation or anything of that sort of thing, that it's very important to keep control.
40:10You talk about ground control, ball control, football, the same is true here.
40:15Now, there are two areas that are tremendously important.
40:17One, of course, is the Vietnam.
40:19I can just assure you, you're going to look all right.
40:22You're going to look all right because we are, we have a few things in mind.
40:28If anybody has anything in mind, I'll deny it.
40:31But I can tell you, well, we've got to.
40:33We've got to.
40:34But, Bill, we cannot do it.
40:36We cannot do it until we have tried a couple of, you know, a couple of things.
40:40The second thing is in arms control.
40:42I think you should know there, too.
40:45You look like more is going on than you think.
40:48I can't promise anything, but the time is in.
40:55I know, you know, and we're aware of the fact we've got the time on Vietnam and the time on the draft and the time on arms control and all the rest.
41:02Everybody would like to bug out and just turn to our problems at home.
41:06But don't get the impression that because you do not see them, I guess I just used you as one other example.
41:12Whoever thought that...
41:15We would make even the Kennedy breakthrough that we have as much more than you would appear on channel.
41:20That's been going on for a year and a half.
41:22Two years.
41:22Now, let me say, don't underestimate what we're going to be doing.
41:28Tell your boys up there that when you talk to them, you don't know a thing.
41:33In terms of, you haven't any idea what we're going to do.
41:36The worst thing that could happen now is to indicate that we've got some secret plans.
41:40We haven't.
41:41There's nothing secret we're going to answer except that we do have plans.
41:46We do have plans, but we have to bring them off in due course.
41:50And we're not going to wait until the election or anything like that.
41:55I have no ideas like that.
41:56We'll bring off just as quickly as we can, consistent with our own interests.
41:59Well, I can't overemphasize right now the importance of getting called up on this draft thing.
42:05I guess you might.
42:06I will.
42:06Because if it goes by the 1st of July, if they're successful in this filibuster...
42:14You're in big trouble, and if they only extend it for one year, just think, next year in a presidential campaign, you're going to call on Congress to extend an onerous thing like this.
42:27You probably wouldn't even give up where you started because it would be such a hopeless thing.
42:34Therefore, we have to extend it two years.
42:37you've got substantial Democratic support, but we have to somehow hold these Republicans together, and they're flying all over the place.
42:46I would suggest that you somehow get the message across to guys like Kat and to others who are very loyal supporters that this is the big casino.
43:03Because God knows that
43:06You don't want a draft.
43:08I don't want a draft.
43:09But if the military want to fly apart without it, you can't afford it.
43:16It's a luxury that we can't afford.
43:18And the United States would be living in a damn dangerous world without the military.
43:22Already scrapped her up on the military.
43:23And review very carefully what Kennedy is saying about the draft, because he's right.
43:30Kennedy says that we cannot do away with the draft.
43:34Because we would go to a professional army, to a mercenary army, that would prey upon the blacks and the poor.
43:50And IMDb can tell me, I can think of no situation which would cause me to get better arms in defense of my country.
44:00At the same time, they said, but go out and hire somebody to go in my place.
44:07Like the trades of Lincoln and the Civil War.
44:10Sure.
44:10The bounty fire.
44:11$300.
44:12Sure.
44:12Now, this is exactly what these young people had to say to them.
44:16Why do it?
44:17They said, you go out and hire this poor, this black, who will go in my place.
44:23And if he's going to get shot at, give him $3,000 extra.
44:28Now, if there isn't a moral problem there, I don't think we have one.
44:34And this is, uh, this is the canopy stand.
44:37So you're getting support there from a strange order.
44:41From a strange order, but one that we shouldn't neglect because it shuts up some of the residential canopies, see?
44:50We don't want to get so far out on this lift.
44:53So you're getting the screwballs like Cranston and Revell
44:58who are going to filibuster against any draft at all.
45:00But we've also got guys like Schleicher, and now Tad, too, and Goldwater.
45:07And Goldwater, who I think are going to make it extremely critical
45:13If you get a chance, look at my argument with Gravel yesterday.
45:17You'll see their whole plans.
45:19I've at least got him exposing himself.
45:23Well, I have a personal agreement with your cast and I that
45:30We're hard-cooked in Ohio because, as you know, we don't have three steel mills here.
45:38Well, but because of the conditions in Florida, 1,700 troops, 1,700 troops, or civilians, from right back to Florida.
45:53It hurts you tremendously.
45:57Because, you know, the antagonist, he cuts papers and dates them.
46:02Then, it comes to the point where we've got a, uh, if it's $1,700, they want to move on to writing on a triangular.
46:09And, you see, right now, it's been the center of test and development.
46:14And they can't steal, and it's all tied together, and this is the big olive in the top of the bottle.
46:19Once it goes to rest, I'm going to go scatter all of them.
46:22And if it worked for purposes of economy, or they're going to do away with it, I'd never object, but it's scary.
46:30But when it's just a move, it makes you wonder.
46:34The next thing is, there's a federal test center for our hoes.
46:39We've been talking to Goldfield.
46:41I should be in there.
46:43Well, here we are close to Detroit.
46:45They want to move us apart.
46:47But here's the best argument.
46:48The state of Ohio under Jim Rose had a bond issue and it raised $27 million.
46:54We will build without any cost to the federal government and turn it over to them.
47:00Now, if we go to any other state, the federal government has to build the whole thing.
47:05Now, I don't know of a better deal than that.
47:08But you see, we've got the money to build up a very, very operating one.
47:12So we'll just build it and turn it over to the federal government.
47:17I've always said it's down now to Ohio and Florida.
47:22But if they build it in Florida, they have to build a cold weather test.
47:25I've always said that.
47:28I think there's, you know, 25 of Ohio congressmen have gone away from this.
47:34So you're a...
47:37You want to have a drink?
47:39I appreciate that.
47:40Do you have any coffee?
47:43No, sir.
47:43Do you have something to drink?
47:47Yes, sir.
47:47Thanks for your coffee.
47:50Yes, sir.
47:50This is something new.
47:52I haven't seen this.
47:53That's the paper, right?
47:57Thanks, sir.
47:58I'll check those things.
47:59All right.
48:00You should see my other desk.
48:03All right.

Nixon, Saxbe & Haig on Military draft and Vietnam War

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on May 11, 1971

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