Conversation 497-002

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Good morning.

All right.

Bill, all right.

All right.

Well, you told me I got to run the Lord.

Well, I'll tell you this.

You know, he just left Henry, sir, but I'm very much aware of him.

Yes, sir.

I did have a picture of it.

So what I wanted to see, no matter how much you know about a place, you have to be there.

You gotta go back to get a feel for it.

But it's really brought me to focus by this draft journey.

Now, yesterday I talked an hour on this thing.

Then I got into it in the summer.

And I talked a great length yesterday on the problems that we have.

Now, I personally feel that at the present time, there's such an anti-military attitude amongst the young people in this country.

We've got to get the volunteers.

I wish we could say it.

Wish we could, yeah.

But we're not.

And I had an argument at a press conference with Washington.

The war is over.

They've got guns.

I'm afraid not.

Even though there are no contacts?

Maybe the Corps.

If there's one thing I learned from these people in Washington, I talked a lot about it.

Their attitude is so anti-military.

Sure, it's anti-authoritarian, but it also boils down to anti-military.

They think they're incompetent, they think they're pompous, and they think they're evil.

Now, this means that it's going to be a difficult time to turn this around and just make him honest is not the answer.

you're going to find that the ones that really have the regard and the other people that want to get in, they're going to be the Marines and the Airborne and the people that lean on them, not the ones that love real long hair and the way they are.

But this discussion boils down to there.

I had a luncheon last week, and I had Ambassador Reichardt out as a host.

I had 27 senators there, both sides.

Reichardt said that if we welch on our deal in Vietnam, that we'll never be able to command the respect of any energetic

I said, you know who he is?

Sure, I know all about him.

And I wouldn't expect it from him.

No.

But he said his pen.

He liked to have his pen.

And he said, you like to have your pen?

Yes.

Did you do too?

I talked to Sarah just like this.

They already believe that we have a double standard in this country.

That is that we give credence to our commitments to Western Europe.

let me wish off our commitments to, like, positive charity.

In other words, that's truly, you know, this is the devil's test.

It's true of the whole eastern complex.

There's been a, basically, a sense of money out here, and it really goes back, really goes back to the Marshall Plan, and they have done it for me.

They're what I call the half-worlds and the one-worlds.

Don't forget the book, it's still a good word.

I basically have a one-worlder than you are.

The half-worlders were those that could see the danger in Europe, but didn't see it in Asia.

Now where the hell have the wars come from, the last three wars?

World War II came from Asia.

Korea came from Asia.

Vietnam came from Asia.

And this country's got to wake up to the fact that you took the Canada policy to try to get along with the goddamn Europeans who are screwing us down on the dock when they have no reason to get along.

And now I have one that looks to the future because, Bill, the name of this game, I'm sure you must be able to explain it, the name of this game, 20 years from now, when you're a kid to your age, is what you just said, isn't it?

That's right.

There will be 250 million Japanese down in Southeast Asia.

There will be 300 million more that are pretty good people, the Indonesians, the Filipinos, and the rest, leaving out the Indians.

The Pakistanis are hopeless.

And that is going to be the game.

That's why he threw this up.

He threw this up the whole window.

That's why he brushed our police system.

I thought you'd be interested in what he had to say, because he is, he said, we've got to get out of here.

Yes, I know.

He said, we have to get out of here.

He said, we should be done on deliberate good order.

And he told the Senators this.

He told the Senators this.

He said, we have Japan right on the ground, just as you say, just like this.

ready to make this decision as to whether to build that public area or not.

And I said, I thank Curtis for saying that, hey, this is new value.

But he said it has to be a donor work and be done so that they can say they lived up to the standards that they withdrew in order.

All right.

So...

It seemed to me that when we talk about our world commitments, and as you say, I talked yesterday on the floor for an hour, and I talked about 10 years ago now.

All right, if we watch on this deal there, and that if by going to a volunteer army we can't support our commitments, and I don't think we can, and that we're going to have this unpleasantness because of this devaluation and Mansfield's attitude,

We're going to let nature fly apart.

We did this because in 1943 we found ourselves finally beginning to pull out of a very desperate situation.

And we said, by God, this isn't going to happen again.

We're never going to let these people build up to the point where they're going to endanger our safety.

We're going to see that the wild man, the man on horseback, never gets turned loose again.

And so we made these commitments after the war.

Now, if we watch on our DLRs, we not only throw out and sell out the 50,000 that have died in Vietnam, but we sell out those people who died in World War II because we're right back where we started.

And we're cutting Germany loose or allowing them to Finland that is because

As a matter of fact, they'll be effective on the Germans, and on the British.

And every European country has an American patriot in Vietnam, which would be enormous.

Now, you know, the European press industry may not support us.

They say it's very important that the United States carry this off without failure.

That's what they do.

Because they put in a record yesterday, in my speech, a statement by a German who said, we in Germany feel that when Americans are fighting in Vietnam, they're fighting for the West Berlin.

You did?

Yeah.

That's in the record, the news article from the Chicago News article.

Good, good.

It's from the Chicago News.

Well, it is a good news article.

So, am I sure?

I know what they do.

Even the socials tell you that.

But?

Not just the conservatives.

I'm worried.

I had an argument with Bob Taft, and you don't have a better supporter than Bob Taft.

is now believing that if we can have the Volunteer Army in 1964, or 74, we can have it in 1972.

Now, what's going to happen in the Senate?

Unless somehow we can turn this around, and we should look at my talk yesterday with Gravel on the floor.

I tried to really harpoon him.

I try to get time on it.

But what they feel is, is one year we'll do it with 100,000 limitations.

We said 150,000.

That will run out in 72, an election year, and you're never going to get any Congress to extend it in an election year.

Now, this is what's going to happen, and somehow we can turn this around.

I can see it coming.

You've got guys like Bob Shackle.

Well, it works out in the 30s.

Now, Gravedo has stated that he's going to filibuster it from yesterday until July the 30th.

Now, I can't believe they messed it in.

I'm trying to point out the fact that we're moving around for five weeks in a time of great crisis.

But...

I don't find any urgency there.

What's going to happen if I get to feel it at all?

We're only going to get a one-year extension, and that's going to put you so many years.

Well, that's the important part.

It's going to put you right on the hot spot in 1972.

But I wish you'd have your people look into this because, and I think that we've got to play down the volunteer army aspect of it until we get this extension.

Because people like Bob Tapper, Kelly's good, reliable people, are taking off very cold waters and let's kick Barry in on it.

Dominic is in on it.

I think it's a very nice concept for myself.

The real question is, what's the word?

That's the water before you dive in, don't you?

Absolutely.

Now, here's the fallacy of the damn thing.

His commission said that they get a 70% re-up from these people.

But what they didn't realize was that the people that are going to be in the first two years are not original volunteers.

And you think they're people who win it because of the women.

Sure.

Now, after you once get volunteers, you're going to get a good re-up percentage.

And another thing that the

don't take into consideration is, it seems to me anyways, the fact that this anti-military attitude right now is growing so fast, Bill.

And so now, by and by, though, the anti-military attitude is growing so fast, are Congressmen and Senators going to have the statesmanship that

I don't know.

I'm very disillusioned.

I think part of our citizen burden is to bring the Vietnam thing already, so we have a few plans.

So let me say, don't worry about deadlocking the rest.

And for all of us, we have been around here a long time.

But we've got to do it our own way.

You know, you've got to do it in a way that we accomplish some of our other goals.

And, uh, well, I think I have no real idea what you're doing.

As your military professor, pretty soon, if there's not a force on the board, you're told you're focused on foreign land, and as you disengage, you're going to have to move around.

My son, by the way, came home today, Saturday.

Mother of a Marine, but he's a Marine Lieutenant, and thinks he's got the best platoon in the world.

He's probably told platoon that, if you sir.

First Marine Division.

They went out there and symbolically held them.

Oh, God, they're great.

They are great.

And he was in a detached platoon in a combined operation north of Da Nang where they were moving every night and sleeping out and getting food drops.

He got sick as hell two weeks before he got back.

And it's the most gruesome story I've ever seen.

They shot him.

The VC can't be.

And they couldn't find him.

So they made this round.

See, they're trying to keep people out of terrain.

They made this round and they drank water out of this dish.

And here was this VC and cops.

We'll have to fight this, please.

Okay.

I haven't seen him in a couple of years, I must tell you.

I didn't have a hell of a way to find him, but... Is he going to come back fresh now?

He's in there, and he'll get reassigned, and he's put in for Quantico.

He's single, and he's 24 years old.

What does he study?

Well...

No, no, he graduated from SNU, was in a platoon leader course.

He's got a three-month degree and he wants to go to law school.

But he's got a year and a half to go.

Hell of a, hell of a good boy.

Now, remind me of this.

It used to be that you get these balls at a pen combat service.

You got a couple around here, you know.

They can be used, though, effectively in a few areas, don't you think?

Absolutely.

This is the guy that wrote the letter.

Remember this?

He wrote the letter that he couldn't see why he had to serve, but he'd go because if he didn't, somebody else would have to go.

All right, now he turned around and he said they were doing an important mission there.

He thought they were good and professional, and he turned me around.

Now let me ask you a couple of questions about that.

I used to be on my trips.

The real progress in that country with all of its problems, inflation, corruption, the horror around that it has made.

I mean, our guys have done quite a job, haven't they, to take those poor, miserable people.

That society, the Marines, you know, their pacification program has been great.

They've done a lot of very good things.

We don't hear much about that.

And I saw places where there was community action that...

It would bring tears to your eyes what these people were trying to do.

It's a little bit intense.

Aren't the kids something?

Yeah.

The other three children?

No.

The cities are such cesspools.

Saigon.

They're all...

This is the evil of any civilization.

It blossoms.

Prostitution, drugs, everything.

I know.

VE, drugs.

Yeah.

The whole bit.

Yeah.

The strength of Vietnam is still a rural economy.

But there are signs of prosperity.

The outboard motors, the Hondas, the Gold Tees, the Timbros.

What's a Gold Tee?

Well, he fell into Vietnam.

He gets enough money, he gets a Gold Tee.

A Gold Tee?

Oh, yeah.

Here, that's a sign that he's arrived.

Oh.

You're supposed to be able to put in a gold one.

But for the Panthers, if you've got a gold tooth, you know you have it made.

But we expect you much.

Can't tell people, take people out of the group who know nothing about government and expect them overnight to have everything, free election responsibility.

Jesus Christ, we have our own problems.

Look at Latin America.

They all follow the American Constitution.

Making a country in Latin America is making it today.

The only one that's really making it at the moment is Brazil.

And Brazil is making it with a silent dictatorship.

You've got all of our, the Chileans are down the tube, the Peruvians are down the tube, the Bolivians are down the tube.

Paraguay, of course, is a dictatorship.

Argentina is in a hell of a shape.

Colombia, Venezuela, they'll make it because of oil.

There it is.

Government is not easy.

Take Africa.

People talk about black Africa, all the new countries.

You realize that there is no black country in the world today

That is, that even reaches one-fourth the standard we set for Vietnam.

There isn't one in which you have an elective government, sort of constitutional democracy.

And there will not be, Bill, for a hundred years.

That isn't because they're black.

Because we understand the whites in Britain, for Christ's sake, they hate each other five or six hundred years ago.

It took them a long time to develop up to that point.

The French had a revolution system.

The Germans, the rest, we talk about this, it isn't the superiority of the whites or any of that, it's simply the fact that people in various stages of development

to realize that the highest form of it, we think, is constitutional democracy.

But to get to that point, it takes you one hell of a long time.

Plus, it's not only the highest of the hardest parts of construction.

But here's what's happening with our young people.

And here's what's happening in Congress.

And I never thought it would happen.

And that's it.

And we're back to the average hour.

We're looking at things and saying, well, we have to do this because this is the way that things should be.

Well, we all know how things should be.

And we all know that there shouldn't be war.

And we all know that we should live in peace throughout the world.

But name one period in history where reason has prevailed.

Not for 10 or 20 or a generation, for one year.

And we're living in an irrational, emotional world, and the do-gooders now all want to apply the reasonable, rational solution and say, well, this is the way it's going to be.

Well, as a result, you get anarchy, and following anarchy, you get purity.

This is the history, and if we aren't going to learn by history, we're going to repeat the same mistakes.

That's why we can't be too high and mighty in looking at the so-called dictatorships and so forth.

People say Iran, they ought to get rid of the Shah.

Hell, they better keep the Shah.

He keeps it together.

Thailand, they basically have a government by the league.

You better keep it that way.

The only big city that seems to be solving its problem is the dictatorship.

Chicago.

Yeah, I guess it's food.

You're right, it is a dick-taker, sure.

Dick-takers have been a dick-taker.

Sure, it goes most mean, but effective.

We ran, we ran all the bosses out of the cities because the newspapers couldn't run.

That's right.

And the newspapers.

A lot of towners have all out.

So we've got headless giants.

Yeah.

In all of these cities that can't affect the lake at all.

They don't look at the portals.

Now let's see some, as you know, a very attractive guy, a very idealistic guy.

New York's never had probably four men here.

No.

Not a reflection on him, because basically he does not have that particular kind of ruthlessness and so forth that New York needs in a man.

Right.

All that, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at,

And really, if we could have had a Republican elected there because I can, now probably they'll put in somebody that we can't beat because it's 70% Democrat, the city, maybe 75.

But this is what we demand.

We demand democracy.

And all we get from it is inefficiency and chaos.

And God, what a tragedy that Dan Bailey is making things work there because he can fire the director of housing and the director of this, he can fire him.

And if he says, if you don't do it, I'll kick you out.

What a travesty on democracy that this should be happening here.

But when he ran Jersey City, and when some of these people ran other cities, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Boston, they ran them.

Why, sure, they ran them.

You know, one thing I want to tell you.

Even though, from your legal experience, that in any kind of a negotiation or anything of that sort of thing, that it's very important to keep control.

You talk about ground control, ball control, football, the same is true here.

Now, there are two areas that are tremendously important.

One, of course, is the Vietnam.

I can just assure you, you're going to look all right.

You're going to look all right because we are, we have a few things in mind.

If anybody has anything in mind, I'll deny it.

But I can tell you, well, we've got to.

We've got to.

But, Bill, we cannot do it.

We cannot do it until we have tried a couple of, you know, a couple of things.

The second thing is in arms control.

I think you should know there, too.

You look like more is going on than you think.

I can't promise anything, but the time is in.

I know, you know, and we're aware of the fact we've got the time on Vietnam and the time on the draft and the time on arms control and all the rest.

Everybody would like to bug out and just turn to our problems at home.

But don't get the impression that because you do not see them, I guess I just used you as one other example.

Whoever thought that...

We would make even the Kennedy breakthrough that we have as much more than you would appear on channel.

That's been going on for a year and a half.

Two years.

Now, let me say, don't underestimate what we're going to be doing.

Tell your boys up there that when you talk to them, you don't know a thing.

In terms of, you haven't any idea what we're going to do.

The worst thing that could happen now is to indicate that we've got some secret plans.

We haven't.

There's nothing secret we're going to answer except that we do have plans.

We do have plans, but we have to bring them off in due course.

And we're not going to wait until the election or anything like that.

I have no ideas like that.

We'll bring off just as quickly as we can, consistent with our own interests.

Well, I can't overemphasize right now the importance of getting called up on this draft thing.

I guess you might.

I will.

Because if it goes by the 1st of July, if they're successful in this filibuster...

You're in big trouble, and if they only extend it for one year, just think, next year in a presidential campaign, you're going to call on Congress to extend an onerous thing like this.

You probably wouldn't even give up where you started because it would be such a hopeless thing.

Therefore, we have to extend it two years.

you've got substantial Democratic support, but we have to somehow hold these Republicans together, and they're flying all over the place.

I would suggest that you somehow get the message across to guys like Kat and to others who are very loyal supporters that this is the big casino.

Because God knows that

You don't want a draft.

I don't want a draft.

But if the military want to fly apart without it, you can't afford it.

It's a luxury that we can't afford.

And the United States would be living in a damn dangerous world without the military.

Already scrapped her up on the military.

And review very carefully what Kennedy is saying about the draft, because he's right.

Kennedy says that we cannot do away with the draft.

Because we would go to a professional army, to a mercenary army, that would prey upon the blacks and the poor.

And IMDb can tell me, I can think of no situation which would cause me to get better arms in defense of my country.

At the same time, they said, but go out and hire somebody to go in my place.

Like the trades of Lincoln and the Civil War.

Sure.

The bounty fire.

$300.

Sure.

Now, this is exactly what these young people had to say to them.

Why do it?

They said, you go out and hire this poor, this black, who will go in my place.

And if he's going to get shot at, give him $3,000 extra.

Now, if there isn't a moral problem there, I don't think we have one.

And this is, uh, this is the canopy stand.

So you're getting support there from a strange order.

From a strange order, but one that we shouldn't neglect because it shuts up some of the residential canopies, see?

We don't want to get so far out on this lift.

So you're getting the screwballs like Cranston and Revell

who are going to filibuster against any draft at all.

But we've also got guys like Schleicher, and now Tad, too, and Goldwater.

And Goldwater, who I think are going to make it extremely critical

If you get a chance, look at my argument with Gravel yesterday.

You'll see their whole plans.

I've at least got him exposing himself.

Well, I have a personal agreement with your cast and I that

We're hard-cooked in Ohio because, as you know, we don't have three steel mills here.

Well, but because of the conditions in Florida, 1,700 troops, 1,700 troops, or civilians, from right back to Florida.

It hurts you tremendously.

Because, you know, the antagonist, he cuts papers and dates them.

Then, it comes to the point where we've got a, uh, if it's $1,700, they want to move on to writing on a triangular.

And, you see, right now, it's been the center of test and development.

And they can't steal, and it's all tied together, and this is the big olive in the top of the bottle.

Once it goes to rest, I'm going to go scatter all of them.

And if it worked for purposes of economy, or they're going to do away with it, I'd never object, but it's scary.

But when it's just a move, it makes you wonder.

The next thing is, there's a federal test center for our hoes.

We've been talking to Goldfield.

I should be in there.

Well, here we are close to Detroit.

They want to move us apart.

But here's the best argument.

The state of Ohio under Jim Rose had a bond issue and it raised $27 million.

We will build without any cost to the federal government and turn it over to them.

Now, if we go to any other state, the federal government has to build the whole thing.

Now, I don't know of a better deal than that.

But you see, we've got the money to build up a very, very operating one.

So we'll just build it and turn it over to the federal government.

I've always said it's down now to Ohio and Florida.

But if they build it in Florida, they have to build a cold weather test.

I've always said that.

I think there's, you know, 25 of Ohio congressmen have gone away from this.

So you're a...

You want to have a drink?

I appreciate that.

Do you have any coffee?

No, sir.

Do you have something to drink?

Yes, sir.

Thanks for your coffee.

Yes, sir.

This is something new.

I haven't seen this.

That's the paper, right?

Thanks, sir.

I'll check those things.

All right.

You should see my other desk.

All right.