Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 497 › Conversation 497-003

Nixon, Barnum & Bodman on Government appointments and Public service

Tuesday, May 11, 1971 · 11:53 AM–12:07 PM ET · Oval Office

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Barnum, John W.; Bodman, Richard S.; Fri, Robert W.; Kurzman, Stephen; Letson, William N.; Sanchez, Phillip V.; Malek, Frederic V.; Kinsley, Daniel T.; White House photographerConversation497-003 on Tape 497 (tape position 00:48:50–00:56:22)StartTuesday, May 11, 1971 at 11:53 AMEndTuesday, May 11, 1971 at 12:07 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 497-003 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon met with a group of administration appointees, including John W. Barnum, Richard S. Bodman, and others, for introductions and official photographs. The discussion centered on the challenges of navigating the federal bureaucracy, the personal and financial sacrifices required for government service, and the professional rewards of contributing to the public interest. Nixon encouraged the appointees to maintain perspective despite institutional frustrations and concluded the meeting by distributing presidential gifts.

  • Government appointments
  • Public service
  • Federal bureaucracy
  • Recruitment
  • Executive office

Audio

Download MP3 (part 1) · 167.3 MB ·Download MP3 (part 2) · 155.4 MB

This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 00:48:50 into the tape and ends around 00:56:22.

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

· Timestamps are positions within the full tape recording.
48:52You guys are all going to get good shots.
49:18How does that work?
49:19Because my side of the problem is on a certain test.
49:23Bob Price is the Deputy Administrator of EPA.
49:26All right, all right.
49:30Steve Kernighan is the Assistant Secretary of the Legislative Assembly.
49:38Bill Lessing is the General Counsel at the Department of Commerce.
49:41All right.
49:46Well, it's fine.
49:48We can now... We, uh...
49:50Okay.
50:26But I think you can see from the .
50:29I think speaking for most of them is that most of them are here at considerable financial sacrifice, having had records of real, real accomplishment in case of discouraging the return to government services, looting them in and out and around government personnel.
50:57Uh, all the rest of us, all the rest of them, they're ministry governors.
50:59I have had the pleasure of having him to recruit before the governor.
51:05He was the encouragement of recruiting Barbara and I, like Richard said.
51:09I guess, I guess that's how it is.
51:11I've been working in the Washington for about a year now.
51:14I haven't had any children for three years.
51:15Are you having one?
51:16If I had a business, you know, five years, I wouldn't have one.
51:26Well, let me say that the, uh, one of the things that you're trying to find is the question of your position.
51:34And you've got to keep it all in perspective by taking, uh, some of the other participants.
51:43The reason why that's the worst chaos there is is that you're running a university, you know, there's actually no lawyer, no, uh, you know, I don't know.
51:51And I think that's basically apparent through a lot of intelligent people.
51:54So I'm hoping that we can try to bring a lot of people to work.
52:01We're going to end up here, actually, with a lot of people.
52:05I think we'll be trying to recruit a lot of scouting people.
52:09I think we'll rise when we all get something done, and we'll recognize it.
52:13And I also think, from the perspective of the lead in this town, perhaps,
52:19A little bit better organized to accomplish life.
52:23Talk about the pivotal.
52:25I don't want to lose you.
52:27I want you to be here.
52:29Once you get past one problem, there'll be another.
52:32I have a person who's, I have a person who's a great set of men.
52:36Because only if an individual can, especially if he does a large amount of bureaucracy, the worst manage of all the bureaucracies,
52:50get discouraged, not be concerned about it.
52:56And once you did the research, you look back and say, well, I did something.
53:01There's another way to do any kind of experience.
53:04You have to, a couple years later, say, well, I'll never do it again, but I wouldn't miss it.
53:12Now, we hope that some of you will say, well, maybe I don't need to do it again.
53:17But I know that all of you will say, well, I wouldn't miss it.
53:21As part of the experience, it's going to be very different from what you're expecting.
53:30It's going to be very rewarding.
53:33I just would say, those who leave government there,
53:40and those who are the small men.
53:45And they take very selfish and personal charges, I understand.
53:49Most people are small men, which I didn't run with them, but I should have always sacrificed them.
53:56I really appreciate it.
53:59But the people who come in here with the people who listen and would not be satisfied with failure
54:09I'm going to certainly take this appointment and say, oh, well, that's part of the game.
54:14We've had a good time.
54:15I really appreciate it.
54:17This is a dream change we'll ever have.
54:18For me?
54:19For us?
54:20That we've been in before.
54:22I really appreciate it.
54:23Thank you.
54:23I don't know why you're not here.
54:25Andrew's not going to be majored that way.
54:27He's going to be majored in engineering.
54:30I think you all make the right decision tonight.
54:34This is a very dysfunctional young people.
54:37And you know why.
54:39There's a lot you might be close to you.
54:42You make a success in your business.
54:46You leave a nice estate.
54:47You raise a family.
54:48So what do you have?
54:50Sure.
54:51You've helped your mom and I, and Andrew, and Sarah, Sarah, Sarah.
54:54It's a lot to it, but it all helps.
54:56And we love an individual who has an opportunity to engage in, if you are, and to contribute through services as a person.
55:07Because otherwise, he's missing something.
55:10Okay.
55:11Let's go down to the Capitol.
55:16You're doing pretty well.
55:20Well, maybe your little elbow can fit with your, uh... presidential cotton.
55:27That's what we get in the way of home keys.
55:32And, uh, you should have worn them at that time.
55:35Are you armed?
55:37Thank you.
55:39Thank you.
55:39Any of you golfers?
55:41Golfers, y'all.
55:43Fair enough.
55:43Well, I'll get you up.
55:47Don't use them, though, okay?
55:49I don't know why I put them in there.
55:51These are very nice.
55:52Those are, uh, you may have a prescription seal that's inscribed on a signature.
55:58There you go.
55:59Don't play golf with them.
56:00That gives you the sun to take out after a few weeks, though.

NARA Description

On May 11, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, John W. Barnum, Richard S. Bodman, Robert W. Fri, Stephen Kurzman, William N. Letson, Phillip V. Sanchez, Frederic V. Malek, Daniel T. Kinsley, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:53 am to 12:07 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 497-003 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 497-3

Date: May 11, 1971
Time: 11:53 am - 12:07 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with John W. Barnum, Richard S. Bodman, Robert W. Fri, Stephen Kurzman,
William N. Letson, Phillip V. Sanchez, Frederic V. Malek, and Daniel T. Kingsley; the White
House photographer was present

     Introductions and photographs

     Appointees
         -Kurzman's prior government service
               -Elliot L. Richardson
         -Government service
               -Universities
               -Bureau of Reclamation
               -President's experiences
               -Bureaucracy
               -Goals
               -Sacrifices

     Gifts
             -Cufflinks, golf balls

Barnum, et al., left at 12:07 pm

Also recorded on May 11, 1971

  • 056-005 9:45 AM · 13 sec — unknown person(s) met in the Cabinet Room of the White House at an unknown time between 9:45 am and 11:59 pm.
  • 056-006 9:45 AM — unknown person(s) met in the Cabinet Room of the White House at an unknown time between 9:45 am and 11:59 pm.
  • 497-001 11:04 AM · 17 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:04 am to 11:20 am.
  • 497-002 11:20 AM · 31 min — President Richard M. Nixon, William B. Saxbe, and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:20 am to 11:51 am.
  • 497-004 12:07 PM · 42 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:07 pm and 12:08 pm.
  • 497-005 12:07 PM · 10 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:07 pm to 12:22 pm.
  • 497-006 12:22 PM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at 12:22 pm.
  • 497-007 12:22 PM · 6 min — unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:22 pm and 2:10 pm.

All 17 conversations from May 11, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 497-003, May 11, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/497-003 (accessed October 11, 2026).