Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 659 › Conversation 659-002

Nixon & Kissinger on Vietnam War and POWs

Friday, January 28, 1972 · 11:17 AM–11:27 AM ET · Oval Office

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.Conversation659-002 on Tape 659 (tape position 00:50:12–00:59:51)StartFriday, January 28, 1972 at 11:17 AMEndFriday, January 28, 1972 at 11:27 AMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 659-002 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Henry Kissinger met to discuss managing media optics and political criticism surrounding the administration’s Vietnam policy and upcoming diplomatic activities. Kissinger addressed North Vietnam’s use of selective record excerpts to manipulate the narrative on POW negotiations, and the pair planned a briefing for Ronald Ziegler to clarify the U.S. position on cease-fire terms versus the enemy’s demands. Additionally, they reviewed strategy regarding Rainer Barzel’s opposition to West German treaties, agreeing to maintain a neutral stance to avoid unnecessary involvement in German domestic affairs while leveraging the situation for future diplomatic gains with the Soviet Union.

Audio

Download MP3 (part 1) · 168.3 MB ·Download MP3 (part 2) · 168.5 MB ·Download MP3 (part 3) · 84.7 MB

This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 00:50:12 into the tape and ends around 00:59:51.

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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· Timestamps are positions within the full tape recording.
50:33Time is putting me on the cover.
50:38I called Grunewald and Seide last evening and said that in my judgment you should be on the cover.
50:45And they said that they were putting you on the cover just before the China trip, and probably they said you'd be on the cover twice in the next six weeks.
50:55Yeah.
51:01Well, I just wanted you to know that this is very embarrassing to me.
51:07Well, you can get across the... Oh, and how it was done.
51:11Oh, well, that I have done at a moment's length with Sidi.
51:18Sidi won't write the long story until next week.
51:22Thank you.
51:45The North Vietnamese are now beginning to release selected excerpts.
51:50They said that I had said at one meeting, we won't settle it for POWs alone, which is true.
51:59But our answer is, we won't go into selective excerpting of the record.
52:04We stand behind what we said.
52:07I think we've made a mistake.
52:09Well, you don't want to hold on to these issues.
52:22Well, we have to make up our mind.
52:24You know, we can't always say we'll get out for POWs.
52:28No, I mean that.
52:29I'm not saying that we change our policy, but I'm just saying you simply, if you let them leave that out there alone, I'd find something in there to knock it down.
52:43Because they have said at a later point that they wouldn't trade for them.
52:48They have.
52:50Oh, yes.
52:50See, that's my point.
52:53I mean, this... That's a good point.
52:54We can say we won't go into collective extra things.
52:58But let the record show that they recognize that we do that.
53:01Right.
53:02It was played at last Tuesday, and we have...
53:05They never offered that.
53:07to you, right?
53:09That's the point that I make.
53:11And I would say that I just wouldn't let that issue hang out there as one that they can hit us over the head with to say, well, that's Moonbush, and they've already knocked that out.
53:27Because I have.
53:27Well, they're beginning, your opponents are beginning to rally that now as a picking at its columns.
53:35Oh, that we are asking for a ceasefire?
53:38The ridiculous thing is they're making points for the other side that the other side isn't making.
53:47On that meeting with Basel, Mr. President, the major issue is that the Germans, he's going to oppose the ratification of the treaty.
53:57Harriman...
54:02I had a dinner last night and told them that if they didn't ratify the treaties, the Democrats would support the Mansfield Amendment and would change their whole policy towards Germany.
54:17I think this Basel party is essentially the party of our friends.
54:24And we should just take the position it's up to them that we're not advising them anything.
54:29If we want to bring
54:31pressure on them for ratifying.
54:34We should do it a little later as a result of the deal with the Soviets.
54:38If the more domestic trouble Trump has, the more the Russians need us.
54:49And also their ambassador keeps reporting that our
54:55I don't know where he picks it up, because actually, Strauss didn't behave very well in his talks with Maslow yesterday.
55:01He didn't make that point at all.
55:06Well, I'll keep him.
55:10In other words, the decision of neutraling him, I think.
55:17Yes, I think so.
55:18We're not trying to push it.
55:21That's a German domestic problem.
55:22That's a German domestic problem, and our friendship with Germany is not affected by it.
55:31We're going to shoot in Berlin.
55:35This is another problem.
55:37Berlin, they're not attacking.
55:38Yeah, I know.
55:39But Berlin can't get ratified until the other one is ratified.
55:42So that's a move that...
55:44They got it pretty well.
55:44Okay, all right.
55:49one of those delicate things in some way to Frank.
55:58Frank, in my opinion, has made a major error.
55:59He's done it, but he's done it now.
56:01Well, the only thing is, it is in our interest for the Russians to have, not to have Teflon completely clear and in truth.
56:14And then we can tell them at the right moment.
56:16and will moderate thoughtfully as it does.
56:20But not now, it's much too early.
56:23Couldn't agree more.
56:26You know, I would be concerned into that of the, of the, the picking of the president.
56:31It's inevitable that they're going to.
56:33Oh, yeah.
56:34The president needs to be arrested.
56:36What in the world is he going to do with it?
56:39Well, but it's really, what is discouraging, Mr. President, is the dishonesty of our leading people.
56:45Well, some of them are.
56:46That's right.
56:48But instead of taking pride in what their president has done and saying, at last...
56:53I had a call this morning from a professor at Harvard, one of the senior scientists there, said I should just tell the president for all of us that we believe he's done the right thing.
57:06The only thing left for him to do now is to surrender.
57:10At least he has offered everything.
57:11They want to surrender.
57:13Well, they probably want to surrender.
57:14But nevertheless, that's as much as you can get out of these trances.
57:17But what is the point of the ceasefire?
57:21Well, that we push forward in possible conditions.
57:25Ceasefire, when he misunderstood the ceasefire, we put forward.
57:30Because it's their point, not our point.
57:34I'll talk to him when he gets back here.
57:36This was written from Florida.
57:37But he also says...
57:39that in Florida it was a tent strike, that it had taken Vietnam out of the Florida primaries.
57:45And he said, well, afterwards things are going to get tougher.
57:49But he does admit it has had a major impact in Florida.
57:53Is he down there on vacation?
57:56No, he's down there with a candidate.
58:02Oh, shit.
58:04And Los Angeles Times has been very good lately.
58:09Can it come to be?
58:11What the hell else can you offer?
58:12No, fair-minded people are for it.
58:15You, Saidi, is all for it, but of course he's more or less for us anyway.
58:23I will be sure to get it to Zipper again.
58:25He's going to be speaking in Houston.
58:27And I'll be sure to get it to him before he goes.
58:31And then hammer hard on that ceasefire point.
58:34Let me do that before.
58:36Oh, a minute and a half.
58:37He's going to start breathing, and the Truman is going to be in in five minutes.
58:40Yeah, well, what I meant is, I will worry about his breathing as well.
58:44Tell me about this remark that I said we won't settle with the U.S. Oh, you want to ask about that?
58:51Sure.
58:52Now you are, you just, as a gentleman, we will not get into selective exhorting of things of a voluminous record making out of context.
59:01We stand by what we said.
59:06The other side has never offered it, has specifically rejected it.
59:10We made the major reverse proposal, which is on the table.
59:14We made the October 11th proposal, which is on the table.
59:18With India's COVID-19 proposal, we have all the controls.
59:21The other side has said that there is nothing they will agree to unless they have not surrendered and imposed their government.

NARA Description

On January 28, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:17 am to 11:27 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 659-002 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 659-2

Date: January 28, 1972
Time: 11:17 am - 11:27 am
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger.

     Time magazine
          -Cover
               -Kissinger’s appearance

           -The President’s appearance
                -Kissinger’s call to Henry A. Grunwald and Hugh S. Sidey
                      -Kissinger’s view
                      -The President’s forthcoming trip to the People’s Republic of China
                      [PRC]

Vietnam negotiations
     -The President’s efforts
           -Kissinger’s talk with Sidey
                -Forthcoming story
     -North Vietnamese strategy
           -Meeting excerpt releases
                -Prisoners of War [POWs]
                -Response
                      -Selective excerpting of record
                -As issue
                      -Troop withdrawal
                            -POWs
                      -Record
     -Criticism
           -James B. (“Scotty”) Reston
                -Cease-fire
                      -Clark M. Clifford
           -Problem
                -Points made
                      -Compared to enemy’s points

Forthcoming meeting with Rainer Barzel
     -Opposition to treaty [West Germany’s non-aggression treaties with Poland and
          Soviet Union]
          -W[illiam] Averell Harriman’s view
               -Democrats’ support for Michael J. Mansfield Amendment
          -Kissinger’s view of strategy
               -US position
                      -[Christian Democrats]
                            -Relationship to the administration
                      -Lack of pressure
               -Pressure
                      -Deal with Soviet Union
                            -Willy Brandt
          -Backgrounder

     -Ambassador [Rolf Paul’s] reports
          -William P. Roger’s talks with Barzel, January 27, 1972
     -Neutrality
          -German domestic problem
          -Berlin
                 -Treaty
                      -Linkage
     -Brandt
     -US interests
          -Soviets
                 -Moderation of Barzel
                      -Timing

Criticism of cease-fire terms
      -Reston
      -Kissinger’s view
           -Leaders’ reaction
           -Kissinger phone call
                 -Discussion of cease-fire
                       -Surrender
                       -Reston
                             -Misunderstanding
                                  -North Vietnam’s position
      -Reston’s view
           -Vietnam as an issue
                 -Florida primary
      -Reston’s schedule
           -Florida
                 -Candidates
      -Los Angeles Times
      -Sidey’s view
      -Ronald L. Ziegler
           -Schedule
                 -Houston
           -Forthcoming briefing
                 -Barzel
                 -POWs
                 -Selective excerpting of record
                 -Proposals
                       -May 31, 1971, October 11, 1971
                       -North Vietnam

                                   -Call for surrender, communist government in South Vietnam

Kissinger left at 11:27 am.

Also recorded on January 28, 1972

  • 659-001 10:25 AM · 49 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, unknown person(s), Ronald L. Ziegler, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:25 am to 11:12 am.
  • 659-003 11:32 AM · 45 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, Stephen B. Bull, Rainer Barzel, Heinz Weber, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:32 am to 12:16 pm.
  • 659-004 12:17 PM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:17 pm to 12:20 pm.
  • 659-005 12:21 PM · 13 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Myles J. Ambrose, John N. Mitchell, Paul A. Volcker, John D. Ehrlichman, Egil ("Bud") Krogh, Jr., Dr. Jerome H. Jaffe, Geoffrey C. Shepard, Mark W. Alger, John J. Caulfield, Ronald L. Ziegler, White House photographer, Stephen B. Bull, Elaine (Miller) Ambrose, Myles J. Ambrose, Jr., Kevin Ambrose, Elise Ambrose, Nora Ambrose, Kathleen Ambrose, and Christopher Ambrose met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:21 pm to 12:34 pm.
  • 659-006 12:34 PM · 48 min — President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, Stephen B. Bull, Max M. Fisher, Yitzhak Rabin, Jeremiah Kaplan, Herbert Stein, Lawrence Y. Goldberg, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:34 pm to 1:21 pm.
  • 659-007 1:21 PM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:21 pm and 1:35 pm.
  • 019-146 1:24 PM · 27 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:24 pm and 1:35 pm.
  • 019-147 1:35 PM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 1:35 pm.

All 37 conversations from January 28, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 659-002, January 28, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/659-002 (accessed October 12, 2026).