Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Khartoum embassy hostage incident

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Richard Edwards is the Arab ambassador and the charge.

And also the Belgian ambassador.

I think you can do it.

Okay.

Thank you.

I'll send a telegram to the wives.

Well, of course, we can't take the position.

No, no, no.

Mr. President, it was beyond anything we could do because their major demand was on Israel and Jordan.

Yeah, well, it's Sirhan, Sirhan.

Sirhan never made that as a formal demand.

I mean, they did and they didn't.

Their big demand was...

When did they kill him?

I don't know how to tell you.

I mean, we converted 505.

That's about five minutes ago.

Well, of course, that's part of the problem, though, Henry, being an ambassador.

Let's face it, it's like going to war.

It's a risk.

You know, it's too bad, isn't it?

But if it keeps up, I mean, we shouldn't do anything now.

If it keeps up, I mean, unless they, I mean, if they turn against our people,

unless we do something to Arab governments that then would have an interest in controlling them.

You know, it's a pity we couldn't.

You know, if Golda Meir were here Monday, we couldn't pretend that the decisions were a result of that action rather than the opposite.

But I think I ought to tell this man that it gets very hard to put the line here on the things that concern them if they don't help control these terrorists.

Well, what, for example, in the cities

Yes.

Now, the Sudanese, the trouble also is, I think the people who can help are the Egyptians, the Syrians.

Well, I wonder if it was a good move to send the Cumber Russian out there.

Or it was a mistake.

You know what I mean?

I saw them, and I...

It didn't check it, was it?

It didn't change, and it just made it, frankly, trickier.

It didn't even get there, did it?

No, it didn't get there.

No, it didn't trick it.

These guys are madness.

And in fairness, no Arab government has made it as if... Well, we may run into the situation where some people will say that, because I said that we would not pay back until they killed him.

Absolutely not.

They all do.

I don't care.

Oh, no.

What you said this morning.

I don't think that...

I was aware of that when I said it, that that might happen.

Yeah.

You have no choice.

But we've got to say we won't pay back.

We've got to say it.

We have no choice.

I have to say.

We'll be losing him.

What could we do?

Just give us a provocation to go in and knock on what you're doing?

To be perfectly candid with you.

Well, the Trapalists, the Sudanese are basically... With us.

More with us.

They've restored relations with us.

How did they kill him?

They chopped him.

It is barbaric.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah, you take the plane accident, the Israeli thing, and this, of course, helped.

As you know, it helps them.

That, at least, they didn't mean it.

They didn't intend it.

This guy had to deliver a cold-blooded murder, and that's the point.

You see?

The same, of course, with the Israelis, and they were shot around there, and that horrible Olympics thing.

And while their demands were so confused, they wanted Jordanian terrorists released and Arab terrorists held in Israel.

They wanted 19 released from Jordan and 15 from Israel.

Those were the two big demands.

Well, as a matter of fact, Henry, I think the position that we will not pay blackmail in the light of this happening is even more sound, in my opinion.

You've just got to say that and then continue to say it, because otherwise you're going to find more of this happening.

Well, they never made a really formal demand on us.

What they wanted us to do is to eat the drinks and entertain us.

Well, you understand.

I'm going to make a note to, uh, have, uh, I think I should drop a little note, a note to Miles and Tom, and, uh, and also to Joe, and all I have to do with regarding, you know, having talked to you with every shape or subject you get, and,

have somebody just sort of draft some rough things for me, and then I'll doctor it up my own way.

That you have said it, it comes with it.

That's right.

And I want to indicate it as some other things, too.

But you know, you can leave the things that would be useful that we could put in there that I completely subscribe to it, and so forth and so on.

I think that would be very good.

Second thing there.

Well, that's that.

Too bad, too bad.

What do we do for you, Zeke?

Of course, a career ambassador.

Yeah.

I thought Bob spoke to me.

He said Rockefeller was pushing hard for Keating.

And I said, hell yeah, it was Keating.

Yeah.

I think so.

So I told him.

I didn't know Rockefeller was pushing hard for Keating.

I think Nelson really intends to go for it in 76.

Sure, he's set it up.

Oh, I just said goodbye to Charlie Meyer.

He's a very pleasant man.

He's a nice man.

Wasn't nice of you to see him.

Yeah, of course.

I should.

But we probably won't get anybody better for that job, do you think?

I think that the charge in Paris is pretty good, Kubitsch.

Not a good leader, but he was a deputy in Mexico.

He spoke to us.

Thanks a lot.

Crimmins.

Crimmins, yeah.

He's quite good.

Also, he mentioned to me, I'll mention to you, here's Santa Maria.

He wants to see me, and of course I will.

I should always see him.

And I asked him who was the best ambassador in Latin America, and he says the Pope of Brazil.

Grand Prix.

That's his job.

He says he's the best ambassador in Latin America.

It occurred to me that he might be the man for Pakistan.

He has been in Pakistan.

I'm sure it is.

Of course, I just don't know.

I've never been that impressed by it.

But Charlie said he'd just see you.

He said he is the best ambassador there.

For whatever it's worth.

There's only trouble with John Tree.

Ideally, we should have somebody in Pakistan to whom we can backtrack.

Yeah.

I get it.

You're right.

Maybe Baylor would be good for Pakistan.

Baylor would be excellent.

And he's willing to go.

Baylor could go either to Thailand or to Pakistan.

Yeah.

Okay.

There's a good one.

I think Baylor for Pakistan.

He's better than... Yeah.

You know, we once talked about the little animal going to...

I don't think he's subtle enough for Thailand.

Well, you are a nice man.

No.

Taiwan, we might send him there.

We don't have to give him anything.

That'd be nice, but Taiwan, he would really handle that.

Yeah.

He'd have to know a little about the game in advance.

Well, we could send Whitehouse to Thailand.

Well, you get into it.

It could be that.

What is the situation now, as to where it stands on Cisco?

What do you really want him to do?

Well, do you want him out or not?

We'll do it if you want.

But you know you've got to have some money to put in this place.

Let me think about that.

That's fine.

See, if you get a candidate, we'll move him.

But you can't do it.

You know, Bob Hill was anxious to get something.

He wanted a cannon, but he can't get a cannon.

Well, we could give Bob Hill a country gun.

But I don't think he would consider it a good option.

Why not?

It's a hell of an important post to us.

Well, that's an idea.

Well, we don't have to get fired or anything.

He's probably trying to put his name down as a candidate.

The other one, though, is to send Bob Hill back to Mexico.

put that down as a possibility.

They've got to call Leonard Reynolds.

They want to send him, but he just agreed not to, and I've got to push him into some other smaller country.

Go on, please.

I'm worried about some of those names that Sands came up with because the one we gave you for German is a disaster, Scott.

Are we fighting?

No, but I trust me.

Hold him back after you've showed it to me.

I'm not complaining.

Well, I know you told him what he's supposed to do.

But Scott is an absolute jerk.

He handled the East-West trade for sands, and the Russians took him in in a way that was really painful.

Oh, what we were talking about was the ocean.

He said, also, we've just got to get lost in hell out of Argentina.

You agree?

I think this is the first disaster that we've lost.

We've had one kidnapped in Brazil.

So did we lose one in Guatemala or something?

No, I think we lost an aid official in Uruguay.

Oh, yes, you did.

Well, what do you think our reaction to this has to be?

What do you say we're going to say about it?

You know, I think, you know, I think we should express the sorrow of an outrage.

I mean, we, after all, we were totally innocent parties.

There was nothing we could do.

You had to stir on certain things, a goddamn joke.

Well, evil.

Actually, searing on searing on is out of our control.

Yeah.

It's out of your jurisdiction.

But that wasn't even made as a very formal demand.

Well, that's what they asked you about, though.

And I said, no, we wouldn't do that.

We wouldn't pay black men.

But I think we've got to stay around on that course.

I thought you, your ancestors were excellent.

Well, they gave us the opportunity to...

And I think this was their idea to do it.

You know, absolutely.

You know, when you go in and something has happened, well, they're sort of, you know, on the defensive.

They've yielded now also on the 34th.

Do they?

Well, you know, you noticed that we were able to get in a few little cracks, too, about the rationale for the aid program that wasn't going to come out of domestic policies.

No, that was important.

And the fact that we weren't going to blink for two hours.

They heard from the secretary, but they had to hear from me.

And quite a few board calls and questions.

I think going out about every two to three weeks is a good idea.

This way, that's a more relaxed atmosphere.

And maybe once every three months on television.

This is on television, of course, but only on television.

Maybe you'd be better, you'd better ask Sigler to come in.

That's, that's reasonable.

Or you have to go somewhere.

Son of a... Well, just, just push the button until that kid... Push the... Top button.

Just ask Sigler to come in.

That's it.

That's right.

Could you ask Sigler to come in, please?

Ah, it's a shame.

Damn sorrowful thing.

But...

If you worry about the ambassador, you think also a 45,000 die in Vietnam.

That guy's going to be an ambassador to Israel.

I decided to go forward with the declaration of concessions, Henry.

I thought we'd do them, you know, about once every two years.

I think it's the beginning of it.

I think we'll do it right now.

But it gives everybody a chance to come in.

Now is the time, actually, for us to, now that the piece of it is that far behind, is to start renewing it.

It's always a civil communication with that jackass in Canada.

Forget the Swede, though.

I wouldn't do him.

And the Canadian and the Australian.

I mean, after all, they are allies.

But, you know, Australia, nothing.

You'd just be a little bit cool.

You agree?

I agree.

The Swede was unforgivable.

I think you went too far.

No excuse.

And then to keep repeating it.

I don't think you should send an ambassador there for several months.

Second.

Yeah.

You say you're here every morning and every day.

I don't know.

Letter, back channel.

Well, you know, you've got to learn that he's just terribly interested.

Oh, yeah.

And I'll bet you a lot of us do.

Oh, yeah, he's very intelligent.

He just doesn't want that much activity, and I've convinced him now to...

to sit down for a few weeks.

Yeah.

Also, you should put one of your men on it.

I talked to a son-in-law a little when he was here, and, you know, I know he, that you, what we talked about, and I just thought I'd bless him a little, and I don't think he's too keen on going to the creature.

The thing is that he would be enormously valuable to us there, but if you could keep him in the, sort of keep his play a little bit,

Okay.

I've talked to him.

He told me of this conversation, and in the light of that, I told him I'd be delighted to do it.

I'd have to make him a deputy assistant.

He won't say any other way.

But you see, Henry, you do what will assist.

They don't view the moves.

That's what I want you to do.

Because you must have all the crap, frankly, held by somebody else so you can keep your mind.

And if you think he's the best man making that decision, let the other people get your asses.

So I shall make him hate that it is as far as he knows.

Was that what you would rather do?

Uh, but with him it's a tough, it's a, it's a pain in the neck to deal with, but he's extremely great.

He's outstandingly good, so he thinks like, he thinks like you and I. Oh, what, uh, what were you going to say or have you said again about that poor ambassador?

No, sir, uh, the, uh, statement should be prepared now.

We actually don't have confirmation.

Do we have confirmation?

I think the Sudanese government has informed us.

They have?

They've been informed.

Well, I guess, Henry, the main thing is that the position that I have taken has to be the position of this government.

This did not involve action on the surroundings of the children.

It really involved the other governments.

I wouldn't even think that we ought to explain the remark of this morning.

No, no, no.

I don't think anyone wants to.

They should.

They might.

They might say, well, now maybe the president said that, and that's why they shot him.

That's the major demand was to release terrorists in Jordan and in Israel.

My remark, you have to realize, as you know, Rome was limited only to the United States.

I did not say anything about the other governments here.

And it's not an idol in the virgin?

Would you know?

If they did, they'd be dead.

Neither the Israelis nor the Jordanians came forth.

They'd have their people picked up all over the world.

The Israelis wouldn't release anybody.

The Jordanians won't release them.

The major demand now, I understand, the Jordanian ambassador, they still are holding.

Yes.

Why in the name of God did they kill ours then?

Just to show that they meant it.

But the Jordanians won't give more than they can.

Basically they can't, but they... No, they won't give because they've been directed at them eventually.

That's, of course, the problem.

When the Egyptians say, first there's got to be peace with them on borders, and then peace with the Palestinians,

But I think all that one can say is to express our sorrow without regret.

Well, you know, it's almost prophetic on this one when I say, you know, I'm being an ambassador these days, and the rest is eternal.

And it is.

It's like going to Vietnam.

It really is.

And it's terrible, and we're sorry, but...

Right?

I tell you, I was, Billy Graham, this great prophetic, we were talking about it last night, he was saying, he had told me, and I'd forgotten this, that he'd had several threats, you know, as he comes from this.

He said, if I've ever gotten some hostage, he said, I'm going to tell you now, whatever you may hear, never pay ransom.

And that is what, that's what our ambassadors got to understand, that we will not ransom anyone.

Absolutely.

They pick me up tomorrow, I think, if it's total business.

Are any of those groups around here, is there anything we should do about service?

Doing a little bit more?

Yeah, you work it out.

The, uh, the, uh, the, uh,

I think that must, you know, now that, you see, that's just four weeks almost from the time we had the others.

It's a good balance, huh?

It's a good period of time balance.

Now, next time we may do it three years, you know, just throw them all bouncing around a little.

But these guys are so easy to, they seem to feel pretty good about it today.

You know, they were asking good, tough questions.

And they, rather, rather...

Responsive answers.

Sure.

It was a good session.

Well, we've had him quite a week, haven't we?

Yes, sir.

We've had quite a period since he... Yeah.

I know several of them were saying that I...

I've never heard before.

Yeah.

They're waiting for at least one white day.

If you look at everything that has taken place since the election, the Vietnam War and all of it.

The death.

Two deaths.

Formation of a new government.

New administration.

And then, of course, the flak over the POWs, everything in between.

And suddenly making six State of the Union messages, you know, instead of one.

That's scribbling it out there, isn't it?

Well, I wish we had a way, or a way to go in and greenhouse these terrorists while we do it.

It's going to be, if the line comes up about the indulge at all, we're not paying blackmail.

That is the policy of the United States Army, and we've expressed it previously.

Because I suppose you would have a proxy cause situation.

I made my statement at noon, and they killed this poor devil at about 4 o'clock.

So somebody would say, well, they read the President's statement.

Shut it.

That's right.

It's not, I mean, it isn't.

I doubt it, but they probably have read it.

That's my point.

Or they might have had communication skills.

Or I don't think so.

Why not?

How would men read it?

How would they get into the embassy?

Oh, yeah.

They're surrounded.

It was one of the major comments that moved out on the International Water Incident.

Oh, that's not a bad thing.

I mean, it was down in LA, but by the time you get out of the suit...

Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Khartoum embassy hostage incident

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on March 2, 1973

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