Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 17 › Conversation 017-169
Nixon phone call with Kissinger on Dan Rather and Vietnam War
Monday, January 3, 1972 · 12:31 AM–12:45 AM ET · White House Telephone · 8 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Henry Kissinger debriefed regarding Nixon’s recent television interview with Dan Rather, focusing on the President’s performance and the interviewer's combative style. They agreed that Rather’s confrontational approach inadvertently benefited Nixon, allowing him to frame complex issues like the Vietnam War, POWs, and international relations within a broader, more favorable context. The two concluded that the President effectively navigated sensitive topics, including troop withdrawals and allegations of political maneuvering regarding Moscow and the PRC, while successfully portraying himself as a steady leader under pressure.
Audio
NARA Description
On January 3, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 12:31 am to 12:45 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 017-169 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 17-169
Date: January 3, 1972
Time: 12:31 am - 12:45 am
Location: White House Telephone
The President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.
Kissinger
-New York
-Call to President
President's interview with Dan Rather, January 2
-India-Pakistan
-Rather’s interview style
-Possible advantages to the President
-President's answers
-Rather's questions
-President's performance and answers
-People’s Republic of China [PRC]
-Taiwan
-Chou En-lai
-US relations with Taiwan
-Vietnam
-Prisoners of War [POWs]
-The President's opponents
-Vietnam casualties
-Numbers
-POWs
-Withdrawal of US from Vietnam
-Amnesty
-Possible interpretation by viewing public
-Moscow
-Politics
-Rather
-John W. Chancellor
-Rather's questions
-President's answers
-Vietnam
-US withdrawals
Vietnam
-US withdrawals
-Numbers
[The recording was cut off at an unknown time before 12:45 am]Transcript (AI-generated)
This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.
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Hello.
You got back from New York, huh?
Right.
I tried to reach you half an hour ago, but I was told you had retired.
No, I was up, but I was in the other room, I guess.
Well, they didn't get into India-Pakistan, at least, did he?
No, I saw the whole program, and I thought it was outstanding.
He was pretty mean, wasn't he?
Well, he was... All his little questions and pulling out his little cards.
But I think that basically helped you, Mr. President.
Yeah.
Because...
I think you probably noticed, I just...
I was very calm and I didn't pay any damn attention to him.
You rose above every question, put it into its most general context.
You first would answer his petty points and then you'd say, but there's a more general issue involved.
And I don't see how any thoughtful viewer could get any other views, any other impressions.
Because he missed the point.
If he could ask better questions, it could have been a very much better program.
But, oh, what the hell.
Might have been interesting.
I think he harassed you more.
But he gave you an opportunity to make literally every point you would have wanted to make.
And it was the sort of program where I felt afterwards that we could have written it
Wow.
Yeah.
to show her like, you know, that to him is a reaffirmation.
Of what we did, yeah.
Of what we said.
Which is not in favor of keeping her in a relationship.
Right.
We had to say that we were going to keep her in a relationship.
Absolutely.
And I thought it was very subtle.
I thought you had to be enough to draw me out.
Well, I took the POW thing.
We got off of that without getting stuck too badly.
He had that, as you saw, he had that damn thing all framed.
Oh, yeah.
He had it all framed.
But I do think that they're just making the point that we've done everything we can, and we're still working on it.
We hope to work the thing out.
Because they put us on a little spot when they say, what are we going to do by the end of the year?
And we say, well, we're going to have people there, but that's their fault, not ours.
Well, Mr. President, I think we have to go a little more on the offensive against our opponent.
It is absurd.
I mean, for you to have to defend yourself when these are the bastards that got us into the war.
That's right.
But you noted a couple of points.
I got in, though, two or three times.
The casualties that you found.
The casualties, isn't it?
Three hundred a week, and we were...
and that we'd brought home all this, and that we were doing very well, but on the other hand, that we cannot, under their POWs, we cannot get out until they return them.
And I thought, too, the amnesty thing, I got that off pretty good.
Yes, yes, yes.
I thought, in fact, that every answer was extremely well handled, and I liked the fact that you kept putting it into
increasingly broader perspective that you'd first answer the question and then you'd go on to wider circles because the average viewer had to get the impression that here was a smart alec harassed trying to harass his president and not getting away with it i thought it was perhaps good to get across the fact that sitting in that place i could not fail to act to uh you know to avoid the inevitable confrontation and then say that two that
I said about, I mean, all that shit-ass stuff about the fact that we planned all this so that we could do it for political reasons.
And I said, now look here, do you really think they planned it with us?
Exactly.
When you said, does it take two to plan, do you really think Moscow wants me to get re-elected?
Right.
And I said, I don't say they don't, but are we saying that we all played together to do this?
Yeah.
That's a pretty...
I thought that was extremely well done.
Excellent.
Well, you know, he's really a bastard, though, isn't he?
Yeah, he's a bastard, but he comes across as a bastard.
That's what some of our people thought.
So I thought it was really the best counterpoint for you if somebody like John Chancellor, who has a sort of more judicious approach, throws you a hook to sympathize with him.
But when this sort of smart aleck throws one in,
And particularly after you've given an especially thoughtful answer, he comes back with some other little thing.
Now, I was very worried because of the tough situation which you found yourself in, that you might have to give... Give us something away on POWs.
As you noticed, I said, though, that we would continue our withdrawals at a higher rate, possibly.
But that's all right, too.
We'll get another 2,000 and that's that.
Well, anyway.
We can increase the rate of life.
Well, we won't do it much, the hell with it.
We don't have to.
Well, the 70,000 is perfectly adequate.
That's all we need to do, just so it's a little higher.
It doesn't make any difference whether it's 10,000 a month or 1,000 a month.
The numbers go down.
And then you're out of the...
Also recorded on January 3, 1972
- 017-167 12:29 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Charles G. ("Bebe") Rebozo talked on the telephone from 12:29 am to 12:30 am.
- 017-168 12:30 AM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 12:30 am.
- 642-002 8:02 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 8:02 am and 8:15 am.
- 642-003 8:15 AM · 35 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 8:15 am and 8:45 am.
- 642-004 8:15 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 8:15 am and 8:45 am.
- 642-005 8:45 AM · 1 min — United States Secret Service agents and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 8:45 am and 9:02 am.
- 642-006 9:02 AM · 43 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:02 am and 9:07 am.
- 642-007 9:02 AM · 28 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:02 am and 9:07 am.
Related conversations
- Nixon phone call with Rogers on Dan Rather and Public Relations January 2, 1972 · 5 min
- Nixon phone call with Kissinger on Prisoners of War and Vietnam War January 1, 1972 · 6 min
- Nixon phone call with Kissinger on POWs and Laos February 24, 1973 · 5 min
- Nixon, Maupin & Collins on Vietnam War and Military veterans October 26, 1971 · 21 min
- Nixon phone call with Woods on Dan Rather and Public Relations January 2, 1972 · 5 min
- Nixon phone call with Colson on Dan Rather and Public opinion January 2, 1972 · 6 min
Cite this conversation
Conversation 017-169, January 3, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417192097). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/017-169 (accessed November 2, 2026).