Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 281 › Conversation 281-048
Nixon & Ziegler on Supreme Court and Lewis F. Powell, Jr.
Thursday, October 21, 1971 · 5:06 PM–5:15 PM ET · Old Executive Office Building · 11 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Ronald Ziegler met to strategize on the messaging for forthcoming Supreme Court nominations, specifically focusing on the selection of Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and the role of John N. Mitchell in the vetting process. They discussed the importance of managing public perception regarding the American Bar Association’s influence and the administration’s internal decision-making criteria. Additionally, the President provided specific instructions to Ziegler on how to frame the vetting process and the consideration of diverse candidates during upcoming media briefings.
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Position in tape: 03:58:42 – 04:10:07
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Thank you.
We had a setter that it should be ready to...
Okay, page five is on.
With a heavy brush now, hard over there now.
Yes.
Where you take them over and run them.
I want to work on the page now.
Okay.
And, uh, as soon as she gets any of this done, then we'll tell her back here, this is...
I don't want her to wait too long.
Well, I, well, I'm going to have four patients.
She should have most of that done by now.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Can I talk to you now just briefly?
I'm going to talk to you kind of just on general things that you said.
And I'm told that you're going to outline clearly in your speech why the slashes and so forth.
Did the President talk to you personally?
The Attorney General feels that I should say no.
Well, I did talk to Powell.
Or I know both of them.
No, I didn't talk to the person.
I did not.
Just say the president did not notify.
Or did not talk.
He did not talk to them about this.
About their... You think I should say no in regard to Powell?
Why didn't you say no to him?
No, they... Just say no to the attorney general.
No to the commission.
No.
Just put it that way and don't go any further.
I know, actually, I can't tell you the presence, but I know it's both of them.
So, okay.
When you have to do this, you do that.
Well, when you're finished, but I didn't want to bother you.
You can do what you have to do.
Well, I'm not going to have a briefing or anything, but when you're finished, I'll just be... All right, go ahead.
Okay.
Okay.
When and how was the decision reached?
You'll explain this to me.
None of their business.
I won't tell them.
All right.
We have said that you decided to mine it this morning.
I also made a point to say in the President's mind.
Well, I did say I had some firm for over
For the past week, as you gentlemen will recall, the President indicated last week he was going to make the nominations this week.
He, in his own mind, had some pretty definite ideas of the direction in which he was going to move.
Did his views change?
I can't tell you whether they changed.
As far as the final decision, he withheld going past the point of no return in deference to the bar and to others who wanted to get an entity.
He deliberately did not, in deference, and also withheld
the delegation to the Attorney General to inform the people.
The decision did not become final until, what did you say this morning?
This morning.
The decision did not become final until the Attorney General informed them this morning.
However, the President had some pretty definite ideas a week ago and did not discuss them.
Okay.
Then on the ADA rationale,
some pretty definite ideas as to the direction in which he was going to move.
Did his views change?
I can't tell you whether they changed.
As far as the final decision, he withheld going past the point of no return in deference to the bar and to others who wanted to get an entry.
He deliberately did not, in deference, and also withheld
the delegation to the Attorney General to reform the people.
The decision did not become final until, what did you say this morning?
This morning.
The decision did not become final until the Attorney General reformed.
This morning.
However, the President had some pretty definite ideas a week ago.
And they're not being discussed.
Okay.
Then on the ADA rationale, I'll let you guys come up for a second.
Go ahead.
We are going to release the Attorney General's letter at 730, which is a good letter, which simply states what didn't work.
Now, the type of thing where the first six submitted your first choice to answer, that was novel.
Is that a little long?
No.
You had others under consideration.
However, five out of six, the Attorney General consulted with the ABA on,
But you did not have much detail about them, and the Attorney General asked for their advice.
So how, within two hours after those consultations began, the leaked speculation occurred.
Well, when did the President decide not to consult or have the Attorney General consult with other names?
And I'd say about two hours after the original consultation began, because they leaked.
Yeah, the moment, yeah.
No, no, no.
You say the moment.
When the president picked up the morning paper, the moment the president, at the very moment that the president found the ADA, that the ADA had leaked, he decided he could not go that route in the future.
Right.
Now get at this idea of being pillory to the press.
I want to say that.
And also, we're pretty sure after that,
and then also that the president was frankly surprised and distressed as a lawyer.
I think the lawyers who have a high dedication to the principle of confidentiality would have leaped.
I want you to say yes, sir.
Attorney General, I have no objection to that.
I talked about it.
He doesn't, he wants us to make this point, but he doesn't want to make it in a way that's going to totally upset the ADA and so forth.
But I think I can make this point.
So, way in our background, too, Senator.
The other point, too, is the fact that these two individuals have not leaked and the others who have, I mean, Senator, she did leak, which shows that we have underestimated the confidentiality of the process, as the Attorney General points out as well.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think that's basically it on women.
Included, the best way to handle that would be .
Women have been under consideration.
Active and serious consideration.
But the President did not choose a person simply on a matter of sex.
And this is a case of why he chose, why not.
And why he chose is the fact that he picked the individuals who he felt were the best qualified.
Well, then you mean how women aren't qualified?
No, I'm not saying that the woman was not qualified, but that he, that as his speech indicates, that he picked the individuals who were the best qualified.
At this time in its history, the Court needed the best qualified people.
This was not a time the President felt for trying to balance the Court by region.
to balance it geographically, by sex, by nationality, race, or religion.
Put that in.
I have that in my speech.
I don't say it that way, but this is a time when the preeminent thing, basically, was qualification and frankly belonging.
NARA Description
On October 21, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:06 pm to 5:15 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 281-048 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 281-48
Date: October 21, 1971
Time: 5:06 pm - 5:15 pm
Location: Executive Office Building
The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.
Ziegler's schedule
-John N. Mitchell
-Richard A. Moore
-Supreme Court nominations
-Selections
-Ziegler’s comments to the press
-Mitchell
-Lewis F. Powell, Jr.
The President's instructions for media briefing
-Supreme Court nominations
-Decision
-Timing
-Powell
-Mitchell
-Details of decision-making
-American Bar Association [ABA]
-Mitchell
-Timing
An unknown person entered at an unknown time after 5:06 pm.
Delivery of item
The unknown person left at an unknown time before 5:15 pm.
Ziegler's forthcoming media briefing
-Mitchell
-ABA
-Presidential involvement
-Leaks
-Possibility of a woman appointee
-The President's instructions
-Qualifications
-Federal Court vacancies
-Mitchell
-Shirley M. Hufstedler
-Conversations in reaching decision on appointees
-Qualifications
-Political considerations
Ziegler left at 5:15 pm.Also recorded on October 21, 1971
- 012-048 5:00 PM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 5:00 pm to 5:01 pm.
- 281-049 5:15 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:15 pm and 5:42 pm.
- 012-049 5:42 PM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 5:42 pm.
- 012-050 5:42 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods talked on the telephone from 5:42 pm to 5:43 pm.
- 281-050 5:42 PM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 5:42 pm.
- 281-051 5:42 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:42 pm to 5:43 pm.
- 281-052 5:43 PM · 56 sec — President Richard M. Nixon met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:43 pm and 5:50 pm.
- 281-053 5:43 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:43 pm and 5:50 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 281-048, October 21, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/281-048 (accessed September 28, 2026).