Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Watergate and Vietnam War

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a different look at the world, we start to take a different look.

My whole view is, anyway, not to press on these conferences, you know, and frankly, ever in the future.

I think it would be, I think that the staff is so thorough in the idea that I can, you know, snap up and cover any, well, quick answers and stuff.

I don't have to do it every time.

What do you think?

Absolutely.

I think the first place, the first place, the difference between doing it perfectly and the way you're going to do it anyway is I'll do it.

I'll do it.

That's right.

You have no danger, you know.

I won't, you know, you may not do it, but we are, we are, are, are, are.

Critics, in essence, will always evaluate one against the other.

And that's their job.

But the point is, and I think we're going to need all that to realize, is that the campaign is on an absolute scale.

Well, if it's not something else, I don't think the campaign's decision is a decision.

It's certainly a decision to be impulsive and desperate and achieve this.

This is a real tough position to press hard on.

That's why the narrator really should be sent to me, because

I will always go balls out.

I always see what it means.

And to say that, hosting is, when you do that, it's just irritating.

And it's safe, the obvious, and they all should know that.

It implies that you're stupid.

When someone comes in to give you obvious advice, what he's really telling you is that he thinks you're so dumb you don't know.

And he says, gee whiz, I discovered something.

I'm going to do really weird moves no matter what they're gaining or we aren't working.

But the point is, I don't think people should ever press me to do more than I want to do.

Because I have a certain, you know, I think that there's a matter of fact that one of the things you have to do is to keep them down.

If you run into a situation where I'm not back and I'm breaking something all the time, there's nothing you can do.

Really?

I think it's just the evidence.

Well, you're wanting to do more than you should.

Sure, sure.

I think our judge should be keeping you from doing as much as you want to do, rather than pushing you to do more than you want to do.

— 1 min 19 s with no transcribed speech —

Foreign trips drive the State Department up the wall.

They don't do all the things they want, but I must be at my best when it counts.

I must be at my best when it counts.

And the other things aren't worth that.

Now, my approach is, and I will, I mean, we always sort of treat each press conference and speech, well, was this as good as the last one?

Was this picture as good as the last one?

Gee, I thought this was not quite as good, this is a little better, and so forth and so on.

I'm just thinking,

I've got to avoid myself going through that kind of analysis.

It doesn't make any difference.

Because I will always do as well as I can.

I'll put in as much effort as I can.

And usually, whether it's as good as the last one will depend on factors of which we have no control.

The type of questions we're asking.

What's going to come out of that?

You just don't know.

People will be like, people like Sapphire will say, gee, it's great to get that humor in.

You can't get in unless they ask a question that requires you to answer it.

It can't be funny if they ask you why so many people got killed with Vietnam.

Say hello to you, Ed Kitch.

It's a really good week for the press conference, isn't it?

It is.

So my thinking is I'm going to check this, do it, and all the other events too.

That's right.

The report is that the Montgomery people think they have a fairly substantial second ballot pickup.

And so they're not worried, at least in my opinion, so they're not worried about their second ballot pickup.

Thank you.

What does the leader do on a much longer discussion?

Yeah, he came in and said he wanted to see me.

And he gave me very detailed synopsis of his whole situation.

It's very serious.

And he said the net result is that there is no question in his mind that the only thing he can do is step down

campaign, but my point of course is very serious, and not sorry for it.

Oh, here we go.

And with regard to the troops, you know, the wind-up troops, I think when I handed the cigarette on the hall, you know, look, we still have 130,000 Americans and other parts of the South Pacific.

And in my view, it's true, that's true.

And they're still there.

And the airport, I mean, of course, they're there all the time.

In fact, this gentleman, he told me that he was going to come back to the action today, and no more guarantees, but then he had to be careful, because there's someone in the Navy who should have known something.

Oh, I didn't say that.

I might have done it, because I don't know what the case was, but that's not true.

The Air Force Navy, for example, granted some things.

There's some, according to them, there's some.

There's 4,000 draftees.

And there's no draftees from any ships?

No.

But at least they're not a member.

No draftees?

No draftees.

No draftees served in Vietnam?

No draftees were sent.

No draftees were sent?

I don't know.

4,000?

No.

percent and our air car maybe are being used for getting back to the field i guess of course the whole thing is under forty thousand

Well, look, it's the old story.

Everything we said about the prophecy, if we went through every damn question of what it was, then they'd start saying, now how about people in other markets?

And then you can get at people in other markets and they'd say, how about the aid you're giving to them?

And then after that they say, how about the economic consequences?

Jane Fonda, I don't know if you've noticed, but one of the television anchors in the last few decades, he had heard Jane Fonda saying that after American television was beaten up, let's take a look at those in Thailand, Korea.

I don't know what she said.

The May proposal, they're going to ask, do they have to go back to the BNC or will ceasefire in place?

What can you say?

Well, we haven't said anything about going back.

I said the proposal speaks for itself.

Or we'll simply say that's not a valid reason to ceasefire in place.

Oh, okay.

Finally, there's a total withdrawal.

Well, if you notice how great it must be free.

The country centers are splendid by now.

Splendid by now.

Just total withdrawal in the event of ceasefire and return of prisoners to include military advisors.

I just said that.

That's all right.

You had to say it.

We have to.

Otherwise, you get to that liability.

Yeah.

My point is, you put that to a total control.

Yes, yes.

You're calling us, right?

Yeah.

It's all military personnel.

I guess they don't...

I don't think we can leave them.

Leave that open.

Another week here, four months is here at it.

That definitely is a coming out of the Senate.

There's a lot of children with, that's exempted from the vote.

See, the moment they invite Bill Krautberg, they're inviting one of their agents.

I'm sure that's something that's going to go down.

Who did our case be sent?

Yes, sir.

In an auction.

He used to wonder whether I was correct about Kraft and Tony Lewis.

I'm never wrong about Kraft.

Tony Lewis, I'm the same.

I don't know anything about Kraft.

They know where the hell they're going.

They may not know, but Hanoi never has anybody that they aren't sure of right now.

Who the hell do they have over there?

But I look at the rest of this, and I don't cover it all up.

We'll be over here in a second in case you've got any other questions.

I'm here all that way.

I'm in it to be about nature.

I'm here about the divine.

You can get me out of it any time you want.

No, but I had to.

I had to.

Oh, LaBelle.

I didn't handle that problem.

I mean, I've got to stay quiet.

I've got to stay quiet about it.

People put their hands in pain about it.

So they said, uh, they're all so supportive.

Oh, God, yes.

Roger Chase went home.

He might have.

But I suggest something, a committee will ought to be set up.

Maybe a committee to win the peace, who?

Theo Cherms.

Theo Cherms, an old friend of ours.

We're going to use him.

He also does extra things.

And that's what Colton wants me to get given to the country on the diplomatic mission.

I think I would have talked to him.

If there's something we lost, then we might have to go ahead and do something.

We could lay it out to vote against it.

And I think, you know, a team that's good at sports can vote, but no one else is good at it.

I think that's a good idea.

Do you miss the vote, or grow up and get sick?

No.

Isn't this a good time to go?

Prove it to me.

Prove it.

I don't want to go.

You don't get us to wear that uniform.

Don't get into that.

It's our, some are our critics, huh?

Uh, I was asked what it was like, didn't I?

Oh, I, I, I like the flavors, I'm sure, and I do care about the committee.

For peace and freedom and something like that, all of a sudden, that's what you're talking about, freedom.

But I, I, you know, I'm really, you know, I don't like that, but it's,

I thought the earlier announcement was very good and went very well.

Don't you think?

I know draftees.

They crack a little lot.

But they made a big thing out of it.

Well, remember I told everybody that that was going to mean a lot.

Larry didn't realize it.

It means a hell of a lot to kids who know they're going to get drafted.

And it's a hell of a lot to parents.

I'm trying to know that their son will not be sent involuntarily to Vietnam.

And that's a, that's a low... What the odds were of his being sent, it really isn't going to be, it's an element.

Thank you.

I may call you on a couple of questions, but, you know, and only if, but, and it's probably this, if I do, I'll have you come over in the future to talk to him.

Go ahead.

Just to put it in a nutshell, because it really...

The situation is serious enough that she is, basically her problem is a mental disorder.

It's both mental disorder and alcoholism and enormous consumption of alcohol.

She's not an alcoholic, but she gets very, very drunk.

And she, in other words, the alcohol comes out of mental disorder.

It isn't the cause of it.

At least I think that's what John thinks.

But he says she drinks enormous amount and she becomes violent and irrational as we know it.

And she's passed a point of no return.

He's afraid she's suicidal.

And he also has enormous respect for her ability to do what she decides to do in terms of screwing hands up publicly.

She is devoted to you.

It's a family issue.

Does she owe her the money?

No.

All right.

That's part of what caused this problem is that John didn't tell her about it that weekend.

about the fact that it was out in the papers.

And after he left, she saw it on television or something and read about it in the papers and thought Johnny kept something from her, which is exactly what he had done.

And she blew her stack about that.

But then she went into a big, that's what caused the tantrum, really.

She started drinking, blew up, all that.

Put her hand through a window in the hotel and cut her hand all up.

They did call a doctor in and they did throw her down on the bed and stick a needle in her ass because they had to.

She was demolishing the hard elevator.

Then they had a couple take her to New York and he went up and spent his time there and he said, there's no way I can.

I said, what about putting her where you had her before?

I played this all, because I saw where he was going, so I went the other way.

So he doesn't appear to be driving.

He doesn't think that at all.

Because I played it all on the other side.

But she's for me, apparently, which is good.

He said that.

He said, let me...

emphasize Martha, the one way we can solve this for now.

The president called Martha and said, Martha, I know all the problems and sacrifices, but John is the one indispensable man here and I've got to have him.

But he said, I don't want him to do that.

And there is no way of knowing when the next thing will come up and it's bound to within a matter of days.

Yeah.

And he said, just so there's no point in trying.

He said, she's told me she's going to jump off the balcony into the water.

Well, you know, I can't be sure she won't.

I can put a guard on her, but not forever.

She won't stay.

How is John?

He's all right.

All right, yeah.

But he's obviously very disturbed.

But he isn't?

Not erectional?

No, not at all.

He's very calm.

But he's obviously tired and sort of rung out.

She's still having big, crying tantrums.

He said, the only solution to this is this, and Martha said to him, John, we don't need this.

You're out in front and they blame you for all these things that happen, and I can't take that.

They blame you for these breaking into the water gates and all that stuff.

And she said, we just don't need it.

You can be just as much help to the President in consulting him and helping on the sidelines.

And she said, if you would just get out of being in front on this thing,

Then I thought I'd be alright.

And that's her whole life.

And she also made the big, she said she's not done at all.

John's very matter of fact about all this and very, you know, he talked about the problems with her and drinking and falling apart and all this stuff.

And he said, she also perceived that she made the point that there's a plus to be gotten out of my pudding right now.

It goes along the same lines as it did for the woman I love.

Saying, that's right.

And there's a hell of a lot of Martha Mitchell type people who would say, it was not a beautiful thing for John to do.

By God, he's not the same shit we thought he was.

And he said, you wouldn't believe the male that's poor.

And flowers,

And so, he says there were 50 reporters camped at the Westchester Country Club, sneaking around every which way, bribing every bellboy and housemaid and everything else to try and find out, writing things like, we've got scrambled eggs for breakfast in our place.

So, he said, he's convinced.

I said, can't you lock her up?

He said, no, she won't do it.

That's where she came up with this political prism.

She said, I got away with that last time, but mine was different than she was four years ago.

She knows more, and she's a public figure and knows it.

And the press would try to be locked in on the whole.

He made the whole case.

I argued against it.

I made the point of you needing it, of the big plays.

I went through the Rockefeller business and all that.

So you just, there's nobody else who can handle it.

But, you know, the part of it is, I didn't mind it that way, but it is fortunate that I happened to be in Farley Convention, New Jersey.

That's typically a big play.

Who else is going to have a gate or an asshole that's sold?

But Mitchell is safe.

I can't do that kind of stuff.

Mitchell can't figure that one out.

He says the Attorney General is the guy that racked him up and there's the three guys, the closest blood and water, were Cahill, the Secretary of State, the guy in God, and the Attorney General.

They were the old cronies.

Very, very close.

He can't understand what happened.

He said what it is, apparently, is the contractor didn't get the job.

and something came out of a civil suit when he was trying to get it and the facts were brought out that he thought he had a bailout and there was something wrong and it didn't work.

It was a contribution to a party or something.

It may be a phony scandal.

They may have put him in in order to acquit him.

So anyhow, John...

She said, I've got to get out.

The sooner the better.

I tried to explain to her.

I said I had to tell her I'm going to the same way to make sure I keep her alive while I'm looking for her.

And she's hit me.

You know, I've said a couple times, well, if we do this, it'll be fine.

And every time I say she's hit or else, she says, not yet.

All right.

And I said, well, if you did that, would you be able to come down here?

Once I get her up there, how do they campaign?

I said, probably spend more time.

Then he said, you don't realize, nor does the president, how much time I've had to spend keeping my money in the field.

And he said, that's badly affected my ability to run the campaign up to now.

And it'll be worse.

So, what if I was going to raise the party, I said, well, I don't like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California.

I just said, well, I said, handling the major moves and all that.

He said, I can do that.

I can do whatever you want me to do.

Once I get out of this thing, but I can't do it as a front man.

We can't put up a sign saying, John Mitchell, head of New York.

Run it some other way, but let me in fact do it.

And I'll tell the players that's what I'm going to do.

And that's no problem.

I said, well, what are the alternatives?

John said, there aren't any alternatives.

There's no point in pursuing them.

He said, I'm not confronting you with a problem.

You've got to make a decision on it.

I'm telling you what has to happen because there isn't any other way out.

So that was perfect.

I said, this is a monumental problem for me as well as for the President.

He said, well, don't talk to the President about it today.

I guess he's got to be thinking about his President.

I said, well, they're probably asking what we're talking about.

And John said, what's his comment?

We've reviewed the problem and all, but we'll have a recommendation from him on it.

But I'm glad you're as far as you get.

It would be very good to know.

Yeah, we'll get the tone of my answer, and I can see how, if they get something on this, I'm going to handle it very strictly anyway.

It helps to know what the hell is going on.

There are two things in this accomplishment.

It gets rid of the fact that John is hard to carry on.

It's not his fault.

We know it is.

I frankly would have had to remark that he probably wouldn't have left this letter.

He would have taken it out of hand.

That's quite right.

And actually, I don't think, I really don't think, I think John, it seems to me like one of the lower lights that John's in.

They say, well, we're carrying good information.

He says, well, don't tell me anything about it.

You know, that's the way to do it.

thinking probably they were going to do it the way they always do, planning a person on the other side, which everybody does, but these assholes were going around bugging people.

Whatever it was, I don't know.

My view on that is that that pretty well kills what it is.

I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't kill anybody else.

Which is another good thing, John said if this thing escalates, I think it would be very good if I'm out of the place and say, well, there's a whole new team over there.

I don't know if he's right or wrong.

They fired a lady, huh?

They fired a lady.

Yeah, they did.

So how, like Brown, is he going to go back?

No, why not?

Because he was part of the plan to fire them.

He agreed to be fired.

I think he took care of it on the way.

They were quiet.

They weren't proud of the fire, so they couldn't say that he had something.

In the event it comes out that he did have contact with them.

Yeah.

They're not making any fuss about it.

Nobody will ask why they fired him unless he becomes identified.

Now, the FBI do have a line to him.

They have questions, and he didn't cooperate.

He answered certain questions, and then they got into other areas.

And he said that if you're going to get into that kind of area, then I would go out and get an attorney.

And the FBI said, well, if you have an attorney, we'll tell you not to answer the questions.

And he said, well, then I've got to keep on holding the advice we're doing.

And the FBI went and dropped it.

And maybe what other people involved in running the question were major political.

The thing that bothers me about this thing is that it's a time bomb.

They don't have to keep it alive.

They can let it go under the surface.

They can investigate until they get something else and then block it out whenever they feel like it.

I don't think there's anything we can do except try to blow it up and just tie it together.

Not my knowledge.

Not his knowledge.

But I accept full one point.

I was running the thing at the time and I should have known what was happening.

I'm sorry I didn't know it.

I was diverted by some personal problems, which is why I resigned from the program because I wasn't able to spend the time and attention I needed to.

How does the resignation feel?

How do you think it goes?

The resignation is going to be a positive story.

It's going to hang a coat on the apartment.

I mean, I think you should do it.

Call in the press and let them know what you have to tell them.

I was here.

I was there to go over.

They should come over and talk to you first.

And do it.

And then you say, on my recommendation.

So, how about the announcement of your name on my recommendation?

I think you ought to cover that.

I'm not saying my perspective on my recommendation.

That's quite a great idea.

We've got to talk to Frank Dale.

There are a lot of little things we've got to work out.

Dale is, there's no way to champion him.

I don't know what to say to these guys.

I think they're a little too slow for him.

They're in a personal trap.

Politically, it's better for us.

I think it's a very low charge amount.

Very low charge amount.

Now I'll go kick them around.

And the combination began good.

There will be a change in attitude.

People will, you know...

It ought to be done right away, because McGregor's got a two-week period of Congress out now, which is a time curve.

So Congress is getting out tomorrow.

Well, they may get out tomorrow night sometime.

But there's no real possibility of getting out there before 5 o'clock.

And I think you ought to just figure out, well, set your mind now, not for tomorrow, and go out on Saturday.

Well, I already go on Saturday, and show you the pictures out here.

About 1 o'clock.

That gives you some time.

It'll give you time to not be crowding the streets so much tomorrow.

And put some nice little stuff in on Saturday morning.

Where do you go?

Okay.

Get your plan 1 o'clock Saturday.

Do they think they will be out by then, though?

No.

I mean, well, they don't, yes.

They think they will, because they think what will happen is the House will walk out and try to talk them out.

That forces the Senate.

That thing wipes the Senate out.

They can't edit.

They have to procrastinate, which is a simple exception.

We are staying out of that, but that's the inheritance plan.

The Speaker is going on the floor to plead with them to stay in.

Plead with members not to leave town.

that parents is going to move on the other side without telling you, but hoping that our guys and our agents are going to move just the other way and get everybody to leave.

So they're going to want a quorum.

Once they fail a House quorum in the Senate, it has to pass the House.

It has to pass the House or call the Congress back in.

I had to call them back.

It is up to you.

At that point, it's all up to them.

That's the beauty of this situation.

You have to stop the government because you have no debt.

You have no funding to build it.

They aren't going to ride with that, right?

The key of it is that they're all playing chicken right at the moment.

They're going to go up to the wire on it.

But what they think we'll probably get is a 10% social security tax on it, which the House will accept.

Ken and Ken.

Well, the other 10 would go into H.R.

1, and they'd fight that out later.

An immediate plan.

It's not funded, but it's not funded.

Well, there'd be a tax increase, but it would cover the first six months.

Actually, it won't be six months, because it'll be effective September 1st, is what they're talking about now.

To be perfectly frank, that isn't all bad.

It means all Social Security people get an increase in their check the month before the election.

It'll be funded.

It'll call for an increase in taxes.

They won't cover this year, this calendar year.

That's a 10%.

It's not airing.

That's...

The thing is, six months is 20%.

One brief day, which is probably under the California program, that's right.

But we definitely, definitely need to get ahold of Connie and get into that situation.

So that she doesn't have to sit at home and bitch about the people and see that story.

This thing has come up, you know, about people that are being hired that she doesn't know about and so forth and so on.

And that was the real picture.

She claims to be getting more than apparently somebody in her Eastland place.

It's all that bullshit about it.

She is.

You're right.

She's a 42-year-old woman, vice president of Cabin Cabin.

What's his name?

You know, the real estate operation, okay?

I'll be worried.

My point is, it's the money.

You know, you have to... She said she did.

The money did.

She said it's bad.

Could be.

Pat called Dave Parker, and she doesn't like the idea of anybody.

She went through her whole kind of standard thing of, you know, I don't want any bad spin.

I can make up my own schedule.

That's bullshit.

Buy my own tickets.

That's bullshit.

She just, you know, that's what she achieved.

But she's got that girl thing that she just hangs up with.

You know, I've got to work it out.

Because you can't be in a position to get hit by this.

Well, if I get Julie, whenever I've got Julie around, they can sort of mitigate the thing.

They know that's a bunch of crap.

She doesn't know what to do.

What happened here is we debated the idea of bringing in a scheduler for the girls who would be alone, who would work with women's things and all that.

We decided not to do it on the basis, mainly because of that.

Stuff we knew we couldn't sell, and there wasn't any point in trying.

So we did.

So we brought this gal in on an overall basis, and she's a hell of a good gal.

She's working on a whole range of scheduling, coordination with the surrogate, scheduling, all that kind of stuff.

We purposely didn't put her in as their person on a clear basis, though.

We put her in as just a staff member, part of the operating staff.

That's why I didn't know what he was, you know, I couldn't focus on what he was talking about, because I didn't think we had put up a special talent for him.

Okay, putting in the results, and I did such good results that I didn't see anything getting in the way of keeping that thing going.

Everything was such a superb, you know, I didn't, you know, including that, they all are.

Trish was in California, I don't know what she had.

She did that Mexican time.

She's doing it today against the one on the right.

The one that you aren't in love with.

That's worth a try.

She did it very good.

Put it back on you.

You've got a chance to override me.

He'll be better.

A great load will be lifted from him.

That's it.

And then he'll come in as an advisor.

You know, it's something I've come on.

With a freer mind.

He's likely to do better.

Uh, as I told you, the, uh, don't have, uh, those people like, uh, that live in the rest of Baltimore, you know what I mean?

Sure.

I don't like this, you know, being around, but, uh, it's, don't make a big production about it.

I'm going to be in the restaurant business, and I'm walking, and I'm ready to go, and I have to take my shoes off, and I'm going to be bothering them, you know what I mean?

Sure.

So,

they know what suit they should get you picked they don't know for the same color suit they wore the same suit they wore at the Moscow Hotel the white one they know the one at the Moscow Hotel at the Moscow Hotel

It's not dark, but it's sort of a medium, sort of that.

I wore it also, I think, when I came back and spoke to the Congress.

All right.

And it's the best one.

The only thing there is to be sure they have the backdrop.

Well, he's ready for it.

Yeah.

And, uh, it'll be a little...

It'll be all right.

It's not going to die.

Because I don't think I've got a raise on that.

I don't need one.

As we have found, you know, I've never used it for press conferences.

It's better not to have 20 minutes to take an offer before a press conference.

Well, I think for a different kind of thing, that would look better on me.

I always put a little bit of

power which is which is perfectly

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Watergate and Vietnam War

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

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Also recorded on June 29, 1972

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Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Watergate and Vietnam War

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on June 29, 1972

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