Conversation 442-015

TapeTape 442StartMonday, June 4, 1973 at 1:00 PMEndMonday, June 4, 1973 at 1:23 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Bull, Stephen B.Recording deviceOld Executive Office Building

On June 4, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:00 pm and 1:23 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 442-015 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 442-015

Date: June 4, 1973
Time: Unknown between 1:00 pm and 1:23 pm
Location: Executive Office Building

The President played a recording of a portion of a meeting with Stephen B. Bull.

[See Conversation No. 864-003]

The recording continued to a portion of a meeting with John W. Dean, III.

[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was initially prepared for the
Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) and can be found in Record Group (RG) 460, Box
172, “Transcript of a Recording of a Meeting between the President and John Dean on February
27, 1973, from 3:55 to 4:20 p.m.,” pages 1-21. The Nixon Presidential Materials Staff reviewed
the transcript and made changes as necessary. This transcript has been reviewed under the
provisions of the Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act of 1974 (PRMPA).
The National Archives does not guarantee its accuracy.]

[See also Conversation No. 864-004]

[Begin transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

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[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-010. Segment declassified on 10/03/2017. Archivist: DR]
[National security]
[442-015-w001]
[Duration: 27s]

       J. Edgar Hoover surveillance
              -Henry Brandon
                     -British Intelligence
              -Joseph Kraft
                     -North Vietnamese
                             -Paris

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[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

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[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-010. Segment declassified on 10/03/2017. Archivist: DR]
[National security]
[442-015-w002]
[Duration: 11s]

       J. Edgar Hoover surveillance

               -Soviet Embassy
               -One-on-one conversations

******************************************************************************

[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

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[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-010. Segment declassified on 10/03/2017. Archivist: DR]
[National security]
[442-015-w003]
[Duration: 6s]

       J. Edgar Hoover surveillance
              -Henry Brandon
                     -British correspondent

******************************************************************************

[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

******************************************************************************

[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-010. Segment declassified on 10/03/2017. Archivist: DR]
[National security]

[442-015-w004]
[Duration: 20s]

       J. Edgar Hoover surveillance
              -Henry Brandon
              -Henry A. Kissinger
                     -Documents
              -Henry Brandon
                     -Years long surveillance

******************************************************************************

[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

The President stopped the recording at an unknown time before 1:23 pm.

                                                                             Conversation No. 442-016

Date: June 4, 1973
Time: Unknown between 1:00 pm and 1:23 pm
Location: Executive Office Building

The President talked with the White House operator.

[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was initially prepared for the
Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) and can be found in Record Group (RG) 460, Box
172, “Transcript Prepared by the Impeachment Inquiry Staff for the House Judiciary
Committee…,” page 32 (.pdf page 36) The Nixon Presidential Materials Staff reviewed the
transcript and made changes as necessary. This transcript has been reviewed under the
provisions of the Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act of 1974 (PRMPA).
The National Archives does not guarantee its accuracy.]

[See also Conversation No. 039-066]

[Begin transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Okay.
You guys probably
I designed the unit as well as the other one.
We had a talk the other day about getting the building done, and he called Sam Durkin and offered to come to the bookie and Sager.
And that was done last week.
And he said that, I mean, he said he called Sager prior to the joint meeting.
So he said, after I have that joint meeting, I'll start working on it.
Well, he said, please, Sager.
Um...
I mean, what the church goes is a faker, which is moved to put his own name in the minority council.
So, apparently, he's on the same, and he's on the same.
And, I'm told, when they did that, he fell from the minority council.
Yeah.
What I mean is that, when I get 90, he's turning 30 today.
He doesn't look the same, but he looks good.
So, when I get later, then the sticker says, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I told you what I wanted to do and then you did just the reverse.
So I was curious what you wanted me to do.
Um, secondly is that we should have a claim to the Congress.
That's correct.
And there is hope, I think, that, uh, we may find some time, uh, to get into the public service out there, and major, major, right?
Well, that's what we need to do.
We need to do the first, the first regarding is, uh, we need to get, uh, American law to be established on that.
I think that's something that we need to do.
We need to, we need to follow it.
We need to do it ourselves.
We need to do it ourselves.
We need to do it ourselves.
We need to do it.
It's a real problem.
It's a real problem.
It's a real problem.
It's a real problem.
It's a real problem.
I don't want to break my knees in the past, but it depends on the patient's weapon.
Open that gauge if you're upset with me.
Let's turn it off.
Let's do it again.
Let's try it again.
Let's go back and on.
If anything gets out of hand, I don't want to get them lost, because, you know, I, in this last year, the time that I've been here, I don't think I'm operating people on everything I know.
I don't care if the way they proceed, but if I see you going down the wrong track, I'm going to have to tell you why.
Good.
Good.
You said, you said, I agree, that's the way to tell me.
On the exact same purpose when I worked with Rocky Horror, so if you try to look at the last paragraph, you know, it can be modified so that it covers what I had to say in my rant in the present.
The only thing you can do is, in a nutshell, rather than somebody who claps and says, I don't know what I should say, instead of that sort of, that fear, that need.
uh uh
That's what we hear in the community, that's what they say.
I say, well, I don't know what they're all saying, but again, I'm trying to say, please, if you want to know, but our city needs to be monitored, though.
And so we, the answer to our question on the line is, half of the people who are going to be in the police department, they're not going to be members of the police department, they're not going to be members of the police department, they're not going to be members of the police department,
I go back to Baker as well.
And, uh, Baker, Baker probably, uh, you know, we watched him again.
He was a major center, but that's because of the military.
So, we're going to call back right off the bat.
So, we're going to fire both lines.
Sure.
Uh, that's how I am.
And so it appears that we're not letting them.
I did.
I talked to him about that.
I said, this is one of the states that's coming out with a honey hunt resolution.
I said, that's an important time.
It's coming out.
It's going to fire on them on solicitors.
It's coming out in the current way, the current way, and not the way it's going to be tried.
That will be out in the moon at some time.
That will be out in the ring or something.
It also gives away a lot of evidence.
Oh, it's going to be out in the ring.
.
.
.
.
.
.
If you want to break it down, uh, you've got to report it in person, because if you didn't, we'll have you ask for a similar group of statements.
I don't want to clear it up right now because I just want to make sure that you don't, uh, don't request it.
You're probably needed not to have those questions because you're pressed on time.
But I would prefer, that's what I wanted to do, to have the statement come after the press conference.
It's very exact, and, uh, I've covered a lot of the statements, but when you issue them, I want to make sure that it will be very complicated, and it will stop me.
I'd rather not be quite off the case than on and off the case.
You're right there on the flip side.
And I've been talking to him on and off the case, and I haven't been in touch with him on the executive privilege question.
Of course, he differs somewhat from what we're doing now, but he agrees that the president has the legal authority to do that.
And he agrees also that, well, he's a lawyer.
Well, he says he thinks it's all about how fast you race around through the hill and testify, and he asks just what they're doing, and it's a very personal impression of both the president and the party's got to be the other way around, and all the way up there would be queries on every good communication they have with the president.
They're going to have to deal with themselves, and the president has recognized that communications are pretty understaffed.
Well, I'm sorry I'm a terrible investigator, but can you tell me what you're looking for?
That's all.
It's no problem at all.
I don't think we've got to give away anything on that.
They were so, uh, they, they, I guess, we, we were not hard enough on them.
They had a lot to do with it.
Uh, I'm sorry, only, only if, if they were, if we have already, if we have information, we should either have an investigative file, uh, classified material for, say, any program that's not included in my IRS file, for those reasons, which we've done.
Yeah, and they're quite traditional and to the effect that I don't know if you have any further information on that.
I have a letter with my name on it to show you all the work and material and I'm sure the history is there.
We were investigating on, investigating on, I don't know any political, what political organization against, I don't know, maybe it's already investigating on against the United States of America.
I mean, there's a whole lot more series in that case.
The Department of Justice, my wife and I, we have the total control of the whole thing.
And the other one is on purchasing information.
And here we have the other one, we have the other one, we have the other one, we have the other one, we have the other one, we have the other one, we have the other one, we have the other one.
You see that?
That's right.
That's the distance.
You should go to the docking station for it.
Out here you've got the so-called S-E-N-O-T-C-O-L-I-N-G.
It's really cool.
It's very cool.
It's very nice.
It's in that, I mean, it's actually located right over there.
Lindsey Dunn was probably the greatest abuser of the FBI on both sides.
He was on the overhand of the press where he used it as his personal way to use it against the press.
He used it against his own party back in 1964 with a lot of evidence and broke.
Uh, he's got high levels of the FBI, all kinds of strong-arm doctors, basically a man with a brain tumor.
Uh, and he also, then he turned into the FBI, which is probably a little more than that.
I hope that's what those were.
All right, so that's what they had to do.
They called Lisa and I said, you know what I mean?
They got paid late.
I don't know.
I mean, it was one of those things where people were, you know, they got to be abused forever.
The job that they did in America didn't use all of the money.
That's what I'm learning.
And one of the other people in the school, he had a guy in front of him, so I was like, I don't know what to do.
I don't know what to do.
I've heard that there are several names that are kind of around.
I thought for example, Tractor Lee joined the call.
No, I might as well have told him.
As a matter of fact, what happened was I had to go.
I said, I called my mom.
I said, I want to tell you about the contact he said they had.
His reaction was not as a man as it would have been if I'd met him.
And then he wrote a pretty cool piece that ended up ever coming down to a very short stroke.
Because part of my concerns is with Cooper and Sullivan.
You know what I mean?
I'm ready to stand up for it and get rid of that.
And I don't think I would be that because, uh... Well, I'd probably let Cooper and Sullivan do what Cooper already did.
They did just what he did.
They are a great example of what happens when a Cooper company does anything like that.
Well, that won't be true.
You can't really go through with it.
I don't think we should be questionable.
We should be questionable.
We should be questionable.
Okay.
All right.
I believe it was the way it was talked about, you know, with the Stone Laws, because the way you go up there in the confirmation hearing, you're not going to have to bother with it because they've used it in the article.
They've not talked about what they were looking in, which is not factual.
That's right.
They were not there when we came here.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Other than that, they should have gone to the second hole and ended up in the water.
I don't know what it was.
Then I found out on the other hand that Bucky was the label of the one that figured us out.
He figured us in.
We did have to come up with a new program, which we are getting in everyone.
We got rid of it.
We got rid of it.
We got rid of it.
We got rid of it.
We got rid of it.
We got rid of it.
So, uh...
I'm sure you can go with us to the house of Matthew.
The house of Matthew.
I'm sure you can go to the house of Matthew.
Tell you what, I'll use the FBI to cover
Before he dropped out, he had all the delegates.
That's right.
That's fantastic.
That's right.
I just thought that he was probably just loyal to the institution because a lot of people there is not and he told me to come try it out because it doesn't look like it.
This isn't what he told me.
I had to find that employer.
He's speculating.
And the fact that he's generally, if he had fallen, he fell.
Mark fell.
That's right.
And the other one is he saw a conversation and moved out of the party.
who had tried their public information, and there's all of these movies going on, and they, they're doing what they're doing, and I thought it was kind of true, too.
I know about that.
You know, who were apparently told, I'm calling, I've been calling you, this young man has been stabbed in the shoulder.
I don't know.
I don't know the name of the show, but I don't know if they have a red line.
The line is called Rock Harder.
Rock Harder, related to this here.
This is one channel that might have something to do with the other.
It's been stolen from the records for all the documents connected with it.
Uh, out of his office and out of the Bureau.
He also instructed the Washington field office to destroy all the records, which they did.
Um, Hoover consented to it.
He couldn't, he didn't have the right to do it.
He had to sell it, try it, and have the Washington Steel office reconstruct it, which they couldn't.
There was all of that movement and fighting around by Hoover.
A lot of people at the agency were aware of what had happened, and it was on the grapevine.
Well, that's what had happened, and I thought of that, because the records, you know, the records that, that records were national records.
They did have a lot of, uh, they bought Hoover.
metal, uh, he was going through, it's like, it's like, uh, it's kind of like a, it's kind of like a white house thing over here.
On, on the right edge of the, on the right edge of the record.
What happened, someone had, someone had his, uh, his, uh, his, uh, his, uh,
And so he goes to the police at that time, and they heard what Marty told them, actually, that he was talking about, and then Bert told them.
And so he's back at Delta in the drug company in New Orleans.
He wants to go back to Europe and work on the method, why he did the break-in, and Mark's self-employed is in a very long position.
I didn't want to say anything about what I was going to do with Mark Coe, about who do you believe is not a major lawyer.
He told them that he didn't know who they were and where they were from.
But then he said that Coe was not a major lawyer.
It was somebody else.
He just dealt with his story.
I haven't seen him in 10 years.
And Peter told him the way, you know, he said, like this, so he was like over there, and I'm like, wait, and he said that he was just passed out.
But the other thing I thought was funny, because another way that Jeff felt is the story.
And if we get felt the way I don't,
We are in service, though.
We show up when we have to go, but we don't.
I thought his past was specific, because he said one thing that he did not know about was all of us.
Yes.
He knows about that.
I know all of us.
I don't have to tell you about it.
And he was very cool.
I said, this time, I did a story running on the 68th or the 69th, where he said that I could do it all.
And it's true.
And then I'd come in and say, I've never heard about this before.
He said, well, I'm going to talk to a fellow who's going to tell you about it.
And he gave me a general opinion about it.
It's just cool to hear a number about it.
And I thought he'd say, well, I'm not going to talk about it.
He says, John, he says, I don't believe this is going to happen.
I'm going to protect you.
I'm going to protect you.
I don't believe this is going to happen.
I don't believe this is going to happen.
This is a very complex thing to have, but then it comes back to this.
I will have to find a declaration at some point.
I mean, we're just going to make a decision once we get through this confirmation.
I don't know why he put himself in.
I'm going to take a lie detector test.
And I'm going to ask the clerk to let me in line.
We need a job to take on this.
And we're going to go out and ask some of the other agents to take this.
We have to leave.
Absolutely.
Because it's only first that we're going to do this.
I don't know what this is, but do they have the responsibility to find trash and throw it in the hole in the house?
I hope they are in a relationship with one institution at a time.
Then you go to Washington.
Great.
I'll be back in a very short time.
You saw what the line came out of, didn't you?
I saw it, and I said it.
It was a great idea.
It was a great, great discussion.
Did you know?
Did you know?
All right.
I'm sure you know what the back of the position is, which is...
Two of them were right, right, and we believe it.
Under proper restrictions of law, the kids are made not to be hung up.
So, I think we will have to find a way to go on as an interrogatory.
I think the position should be you are holding nothing back from the range of fire.
That's what I've said before.
You can't be in a position of protecting anybody around here.
The information has to be available.
But to go out there and make a surface out of the appearance of people.
Well, let me tell you this.
What would you like to talk to me about this time?
I've got to watch him.
I need to go to the bathroom right now.
Where are you?
Hi, you're going to have an accident.
I hope you're fine.
I hope you're good.
I'm going to have to get rid of this one.
Please, just get off here.
You're a private person.
You can go.
How's it going?
How's it going?
I'm going to have to get rid of this one.
How's it going?
I'm going to have to get rid of this one.
I'm going to have to get rid of this one.
He's right.
He's right.
He's right.
He's right.
He's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
.
.
We're running out of air.
We're running out of air.
We're running out of air.
We're running out of air.
We're running out of air.
We're running out of air.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It has come free in the real world.
It has come free in the real world.
We are getting paralyzed.
We are getting paralyzed.
We got to go to the airport.
We got to go to the airport.
We got to go to the airport.
We got to go to the airport.
We got to go to the airport.
Uh, would be glad if the FBI came to obtain security options.
Very much so.
Uh, would be glad if the FBI came to obtain security options.
Very much so.
Probably there should be two.
Probably there should be two.
Probably there should be two.
Probably there should be two.
Probably there should be two.
Probably there should be two.
We are going to have a fundraising party.
We are going to have a fundraising party.
We are going to have a fundraising party.
Roger that.
Roger that.
So, uh...
So, uh...
I have...
I have... You can have that for me.
I'm sure you can grow with us, uh...
I'll send that to you.
I'll send... You can have that for me.
I'm sure you can grow with us, uh...
I'll send that to you.
I'll send...
I don't have to e-mail you.
I don't have to e-mail you.
I just want to grab your phone.
I just want to leave it.
I don't want to grab your phone.
I just care about my wife.
I don't know where she's at right now.
Thank you.
I'm going to use the FBI to cover, I'm going to use the FBI to cover the, uh, the, uh, the community, community convention, uh, before he dropped out one day when he, uh, before he dropped out one day when he had, he had all the dumb kids, all the dumb kids, that's right.
.
.
.
that's right
I can tell this is probably just loyal, I can tell this is probably just loyal to the institution, the institution, the other one, to the institution, the institution, the other one.
I don't think we're there at all.
I don't think we're there at all.
And he told me to come try, he told me to come try it out with the other one.
This is the other one.
This is the one.
He told me to try it out with the other one.
He told me to try it out with the other one.
He told me to try it out with the other one.
And, uh, and the other one is a talk, the other one is a talk on the basis of who's now the party, who has tried their public information, who's now the party.
who has tried their public information, but they don't know who he's talking about.
Now, now, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they
I don't know.
I don't see children.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
This is one channel that might have a hub channel that might have a hub to connect the other.
It's been stolen to connect the other.
It's been stolen to the records, or all of the records, or all of the documents to connect with it.
Uh, out of his office and out of the bureau.
He also discovered that he was watching the field office to connect with it.
out of his office and out of the bureau.
He also discovered he wanted to steal the office to destroy all their records, which they did.
They did.
Hoover transcended those.
Hoover transcended those.
He couldn't.
He didn't have the right to do it again.
He couldn't.
He didn't have the right to do it again.
He saw it.
He tried to find out he wanted to steal the office.
trying to make a deal on the reconstruction, which they couldn't, which they couldn't.
There was all of that movement and fighting around by movement.
There was all of that movement and fighting around by movement.
A lot of people at the agency were aware of what was happening, were aware of what was happening, and it was on the grapevine, and it was on the grapevine.
Well, that's what I asked.
Well, that's what I asked.
And I thought about it.
And I thought about it.
And I thought about it.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
Someone had someone had someone had someone had someone had someone had someone had someone had someone had
I already told him.
I already told him.
I told him about it.
I told him about it.
I told him about it.
Self is back as self is.
Self is probably coming to the origin.
Probably coming to the origin.
You want to go back to zero and then work on it.
Zero and then work on it.
Why is it a great game?
Why is it a great game?
Smart self-employment.
Smart self-employment is a great position.
I didn't want to drain it out.
I didn't want to drain it out.
I'll be doing my coaching.
I'll be doing my coaching.
I'll be doing my coaching.
I'll be doing my coaching.
The only day where I grew up I heard that song.
The only day where I grew up I heard that song.
But, but, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many,
Sometimes with the lawyer, sometimes with the lawyer, sometimes with the office, sometimes with the office.
This is all legit stories.
This is all legit stories.
This is all legit stories.
This is all legit stories.
I didn't hear it.
No, I didn't hear it.
I didn't hear it.
I didn't hear it.
I didn't hear it.
But the other day I was talking to Jeff and I was saying that Jeff felt his maturity and if he felt his maturity and if he felt the way I had known him, the way I had known him,
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
We are in serious trouble.
... ... ... ... ... ...
He's a prophet.
He's a prophet.
He's a prophet.
He's a prophet.
It's a school cucumber about...
It's a school cucumber about...
It's a school cucumber about...
John, he says, John, he says this.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
I said, well, I don't believe this is happening.
On other words, you can't vote.
On other words, you can't vote.
You can't vote.
You can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
So, just like you can't vote, you can't vote.
... ... ... ... ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
A great chance.
How would we, how would we, you know, find a tracer?
Find a tracer?
Do they, do they have the responsibility to find a trash, the responsibility to find trash for a small child, for a small child?
How would they, you know, find a tracer at home?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Alright.
I think the position...
I think the position should be that you are holding nothing back in the range of fire.
That would be four.
You are holding nothing back in the range of fire.
That would be four.
That would be four.
Uh, you can't, you can't do any of the decisions yourself.
But for tech, for tech teams, any, any, any, anybody around, anybody around, anybody around, the installation, installation has to be, has to be available, available.
Let's go, let's go up over there, there.
And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
Thank you.
Are you okay?
I'm a big, I'm a big sister.
I'm a big sister.
I'm a big sister.
I'm a big sister.
the the the the the the
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.