Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 9 › Conversation 009-038

Nixon phone call with Hébert on Military Draft and Legislative Strategy

Thursday, September 16, 1971 · 10:48 AM–10:57 AM ET · White House Telephone · 9 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Hébert, F. EdwardConversation009-038 on Tape 9 (tape position 01:14:23–01:23:22)StartThursday, September 16, 1971 at 10:48 AMEndThursday, September 16, 1971 at 10:57 AMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 009-038 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417189695 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Congressman F. Edward Hébert discussed legislative strategy regarding the extension of the military draft, emphasizing the need to maintain a hardline stance to protect national security interests. Nixon requested that Hébert avoid making immediate public comments if an initial vote fails, instead deferring to the President so they can coordinate a secondary strategy with key allies like Leslie Arends and John Stennis. Additionally, Nixon agreed to attend Hébert's 70th birthday portrait-hanging ceremony on October 12, 1971, contingent upon their continued collaboration on the draft legislation.

Audio

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NARA Description

On September 16, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and F. Edward Hébert talked on the telephone from 10:48 am to 10:57 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 009-038 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 9-38

Date: September 16, 1971
Time: 10:48 am - 10:57 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with F. Edward Hébert.

[See Conversation No. 278-51]
     Draft
           -President's strategy with Hébert
           -Leslie C. Arends

        -Gordon L. Allott
        -Michael J. (“Mike”) Mansfield
        -Hugh Scott
        -Hébert's attendance at conference
             -Meeting
             -Arends
             -John C. Stennis
             -Volunteer Army
        -Vote

Negotiations with Soviet Union

North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]

Vietnam

Draft
        -Question of world leadership
        -Senate
        -Meeting with Arends, Stennis
        -Margaret Chase Smith
        -Paris negotiations
        -Arends’ talk with the President
        -Extension
        -Vote
        -Hébert
              -Statement to press
        -Arends’ talk with Hébert
        -Mansfield amendment
              -Votes

Hébert's medical bill
Show the rest of the log (26 more lines)
    -Department of Health, Education and Welfare [HEW]
          -Melvin R. Laird

Hebert portrait hanging, October 12, 1971
    -Committee room
    -Time
    -The President's attendance
    -70th birthday

Draft issue

          -Meeting with Hébert, Arends, and Stennis
          -Significance

     Hébert portrait hanging
         -The President's attendance

     Draft issue
           -Votes
           -Arends’ conversation with Hébert
           -Senate
                 -Filibuster

     Hébert portrait hanging
         -John Taber
         -The President's attendance

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Yeah.
Congressman Abier, sir.
Hello.
Mr. President.
Eddie, how are you?
How are you this morning?
I'd like to make a little real Machiavellian medicine with you.
You got a minute?
I like that league.
Yeah.
Now, let me tell you.
I've been in touch with Les, you know.
And here's the situation.
We got in Allitt and put his feet to the fire and then we got in and I had to make him a promise and I don't know what he's going to do.
I also got in Mansfield along with
with uh scott and uh i didn't do any good at all with him he didn't he just put on the stand he's just worth worth a damn no i mean i don't mean he isn't worth anything but that's the way mike believe you and i know mike yeah all right here's the situation i have told them i told everybody flatly that you would not go to conference that is correct now i've held that over their head and so forth and i've got them all scared to death now
Let me say that if worse comes to worse, and there's where the Machiavellian thing comes in.
I want you to stick right to your line.
I'm not going to compromise.
If worse comes to worse, and if they sink this damn thing, then you and I have just got to sit down, you and I and maybe Les and John Stennis, I don't know,
We just got to sit down and decide how the devil we're going to get some way to keep the draft going.
Because the only thing that they've come up with around, that I've heard around here,
He said, well, then we'll have to go all out for the volunteer army.
Well, now, Eddie, you know damn well the volunteer army isn't going to work right now.
Definitely not.
Do you agree?
I agree.
I don't think it's going to work in the future either.
Yeah.
Well, I know.
I know you feel that way in any way.
But you see what I mean is that you and I, we understand each other.
But on this thing, what I'm really saying to you is this, is that when they come to you, if this vote goes wrong, when they come to you afterwards, I'd like for you to say, well, I'm not going to comment until I talk to the president about it.
Would you do that?
I'm going to say that to them all publicly.
I want you to say that publicly.
No, I mean no.
The press will come to you right after this vote.
And I want you to say, I want to talk to the president.
Because, look, we've got the national, let me tell you this.
We've got some things coming up with the Russians that are very important.
We've got some things, the whole NATO thing is important, you know, keeping those guys up to the mark if we drop the draft.
needless to say, what will happen in the rest of the world.
Vietnam, fortunately, is, despite all of their whimpering around, is about over.
But if the United States doesn't have the draft, the United States can just kiss
world leadership goodbye.
That's correct.
Right.
So if you could say to them, because otherwise they'll come to you, that what they'd love to say, and I think it'd be a world headline, what they'd love to say, the Senate laid this on the table, and Congressman Hebert said the draft is finished.
See, that's what they want to say.
We must not have that be the lead, even for 24 hours.
So what I'd like for you to say, if you would, and then what I'd like to do is, if
You have confidence in errands, don't you?
Oh, definitely.
Well, if you and Les and I, should we be the three to talk about it, or do you want...
I want John in there, too.
And John Stennis?
Oh, yes.
He should be, because he's... How about Margaret?
Is she all right?
Well, Margaret's been all right.
She made a fine speech to you yesterday on the dark.
I haven't noticed it yet.
But the whole thing is my position now, is that I will not...
I told John Stennis yesterday that Pai Mun Jong and the Paris Peace Charts would be marathons if we went back to conference in comparison with what I... And Les said that he told you the other afternoon, too.
He said you just wouldn't go?
We wouldn't go, and you said we were right.
Yeah.
And the point is, understand, I'm not asking you to change that.
No, I know what I'm doing.
The only thing that I'm asking you to do, I do not want to put you in the embarrassing position of me saying that you remember during the conference what the situation was, keeping you out of it entirely.
I know.
And that's what I know.
If you want it that way, I'll do it.
Well, here's the reason.
I think what has to happen is that
I think that you and I and Les and John have simply got to work out some way to
and we may have to compromise them some way that we can get the damn draft extended.
And if that means, in other words, we work out in advance what we'll agree to and what will get the votes.
Don't you think it's just cold-blooded as that?
Well, listen, I'm cold on the thing.
Yeah.
Definitely.
And incidentally, you played it just right.
You got their feet to the fire.
But what I mean is if the vote goes wrong, I just think to have a 24-hour headline to the fact the draft is over...
would just be a hell of a thing.
And I think if you could just tell the boys...
If I have your permission to say it, I'll say it.
You say, look, the national security is involved here, and I'm not going to comment on this until I've talked to the president about it.
That's the way you want it.
You say that, and incidentally, if you would fill in...
Don't tell John Stennis, actually.
I don't want him.
Tell him the Senate.
In other words, we want to keep their feet to the fire.
But tell Liss in greatest confidence and tell him to continue to play the hard game.
But then there comes a point if the hard game doesn't work where we have to work out another game.
You understand that.
But do we understand each other now?
I'm not going to give in on a lot of those things.
I understand on your draft extension, too.
But they ain't going to get any more money and all that kind of stuff.
Oh, I understand that.
Oh, the Yalla thing?
No, I understand that.
They're going to get killed on that now and then.
No, it isn't that that I'm asking what we really are going to have.
We've probably got to do some hankledy-pank on that damn Mansfield thing.
Oh, God almighty.
And that is the, and I don't know, I mean, I understand it's purely votes, purely votes, but I don't, and I don't know that we can, but I do think that we, that you, that we've got to sit down and talk about it because, frankly,
There is no other way except, frankly, the draft is now in your hands and mine.
And I think you and I have just got to work it out.
I'm in short disposal.
All right.
I'm like a secretary of defense.
You've got to ask them with the HEW, allow them to take the queen out of the Mardi Gras ball.
What?
I'm having trouble with my medical bill, that ATW, my medical bill.
Oh, yeah?
Oh, I see.
And he said ATW is calling him up, and we were talking about him preparing for the bill.
I've been working on this damn thing for 18 years, you know.
And I told Mel yesterday, not wanting to appear, I said, well, do you think the ATW would allow you to take the queen of this year's Mardi Gras ball out, which the theme is going to be stand-up for America?
He said, you're not a fake people.
Okay.
There's one thing I want you to give serious thought to.
This is a personal thing.
Give serious thought to, and if at all possible, and I can understand if you can't, and that's when they're going to hang the portrait of me in the committee room on October the 12th.
October the 12th?
October, that's Columbus.
Now look, does it have to be that day?
It's got to be that day.
October 12th.
That's my 70th birthday.
Your 70th birthday?
My 70th birthday.
I'll be there, but now I got a condition.
You and I and Les and John have got to work this draft thing out, okay?
Will you be there on that date?
I'll be there.
Because it means everything to me.
You've known me so long.
Listen, I don't give a damn whether it means a lot to me.
I'm going to do it on that basis.
Well, it means a lot to me, really.
Well, listen, it's a great day, and I'll be there.
And in the meantime, though, that's you and I, unless we've just got to work everything out.
But we won't.
We won't compromise now, but then, Eddie, we've got to get down to the votes and see what we can do.
All right.
And we'll slicker these guys yet.
Don't.
Okay.
Now, tell Les to say the same thing that you say.
I'll tell Les.
And tell him in greatest, tell him don't say a word, however, to the Senate votes, because we might still win the vote.
It's very tough, but we might win the vote.
Because the table is still alive and the filibuster begins.
Yeah, yeah.
You realize that parliamentary situation.
If they table it.
If they table it, that don't end up... No, I read it.
If they table it on a table, if they fail the table, then the filibuster begins.
God damn, you know that, Senator.
Isn't that something?
I'm telling you, I can't understand those people over there.
It's as plain as the nose on your face in this country being in chaotic conditions.
That's right.
But with your permission, and that's the way you want to handle it.
I told you from the beginning that you tell me what to do.
You call the shots.
All right.
Now, you will be here with me on Earth October 12th.
Yeah.
They're flying an even chartered plane out of New Orleans up here for it.
But what's going to be here?
Oh, sure, sure.
Right up here on the hill.
Okay.
It's going to be one of those things.
I understand.
It's one of those portraits in the armed services room.
Yeah.
I mean, the same as you did for Tabor and...
I understand.
I understand.
I'll be there.
You'll be there.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye.

Also recorded on September 16, 1971

  • 009-036 10:33 AM · 28 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield talked on the telephone from 10:33 am to 10:34 am.
  • 278-047 10:33 AM · 29 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 10:33 am to 10:34 am.
  • 009-037 10:34 AM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:34 am and 10:48 am.
  • 278-048 10:34 AM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 10:34 am and 10:48 am.
  • 278-049 10:34 AM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 10:34 am and 10:48 am.
  • 278-050 10:34 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 10:34 am and 10:48 am.
  • 278-051 10:48 AM · 24 min — President Richard M. Nixon, F. Edward Hébert, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 10:48 am to 10:57 am.
  • 009-039 11:15 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 11:15 am and 11:48 am.

All 62 conversations from September 16, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 009-038, September 16, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417189695). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/009-038 (accessed November 7, 2026).