Conversation 245-018

TapeTape 245StartTuesday, April 6, 1971 at 1:00 PMEndTuesday, April 6, 1971 at 1:45 PMTape start time02:37:51Tape end time03:14:00ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceOld Executive Office Building

On April 6, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:00 pm and 1:45 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 245-018 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 245-018
Date: April 6, 1971
Time: 1:00 pm - unknown before 1:45 pm
Location: Executive Office Building
The President met with Henry A. Kissinger
President’s speech on Vietnam, April 7, 1971
Draft
-Changes
-Page 1
-Kissinger’s suggestions
-Language
-Dates
-Additions
-Language
-Withdrawal of troops
-Language
-Points
-Wording
-Negotiated settlement
-Articles
-Additions
-President’s intentions
-Wording
-Withdrawal of troops
-Dates
-Numbers
-Figures
-William P. Rogers’ briefing
-Chart
-Use
-Cabinet briefing
-Vice President Spiro T. Agnew
-Chart
-Casualties
-Sensitivity
-Kissinger’s briefings
-Casualties
-Tet offensive
-Use of figures
-Tet comparison
-Laos
-Background
-Estimates
-Comparisons
-South Vietnamese casualties
-Significance
-United States’ ground forces
-Replacement by United States’ air sorties
-Charges by George S. McGovern
-McGovern
-Possible Kissinger rebuttal
-Television
-United States’ policy goals in Southeast Asia
-Wording
-Changes
-United States’ casualties
-Rate
-South Vietnamese operations
-Wording
-North Vietnamese attacks from Laos on United States forces
-Supply lines and logistics
-North Vietnamese major offenses
-Language
-Vietnamization policy
-Success of Cambodian operations
-Unknown man’s views
-Consequences of failure in Vietnam
-Middle East
-President’s policy
-Popular opinion
-Jews in Europe
-Nazis
-American attitude
-Vietnamization policy
-Success
-Language
-End of United States’ involvement in war
-Wording of statement
-South Vietnamese defense
-Residual force
-Rogers
-United States’ options
-Opposition to President’s policies
-United States’ policy
-Press
-Intellectuals
-Harvard University
-Yale University
-Princeton University
Support for the President
-President’s conversation with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
-Kissinger’s list
-John J. McCloy
-[Forename unknown] Kekold [sp?]
-[Forename unknown] Nolan
-[Forename unknown] Wheeler
-Thomas S. Gates, Jr.
-Conservatives
-Liberals
-McCloy
-Lawyers
-David Rockefeller
-Nelson A. Rockefeller
-Kissinger’s forthcoming conversation with Rockefeller
-Politicians
-Veterans of Foreign Wars
-Congressmen
Ford Foundation
-Unknown man at foundation
-McGeorge Bundy
-Support for Edmund S. Muskie’s trips to Africa
-President’s travels contrasted
-Emoluments
-Muskie
-Unknown man’s conversation with Kissinger
Soviet Union
-Soviet Minister to the United Nations
-Leonid I. Brezhnev
-United States - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR] relations
-Possible United States’ response
-Anatoliy F. Dobrynin
-Communist Party Congress
-Result
-Haldeman
-President’s political options
-Cambodia and Laos
-Bombing of North Vietnam
President’s speech on Vietnam, April 7, 1971
-Revisions
-Goal
-Withdrawal
-Program
-Peace conference
-Prisoners of War
-All-Indochina peace conference
-Wording of appeal to Hanoi to start serious negotiations
-Withdrawal
-American involvement
-Timetable of withdrawal of outside forces
-Offer
Recording was cut off at an unknown time before 1:45 pm

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

My suggestion is, for example, to get my foot in some good news.
I wonder whether that is.
That would be just better to say to get my foot by announcing an issue.
It's a period from May 1st to December 1st.
On the right edge of the tube, because most of these studies have changed, right?
On the first line, instead of hands, that means it's a little better to say water.
Where it says what?
It may be important to get down to water, I don't know.
But actually, it's not important.
No, actually, it's better to have a little bit of water.
Maybe we should add this with another herb in there.
And without endangerment.
And without destroy.
The word didn't change either, though.
Well, I mean, without jeopardizing, it's all right.
Leave that.
We're not going to step up a straw without jeopardizing our aid, of course.
And without endangering our own souls.
See, I think it needs another trailer.
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
You're making a different focus.
Yeah, I'm making a different mind.
Or adventuring out of the door.
Well, I mean, in the end, it's a little better for me to say that.
The dictionary is all right.
Yeah.
It's not a dictionary.
It's really not.
It's a question of how it feels, but I read it, and I don't know if it's a feeling.
I think it's fine.
I see your point.
All right.
There was no comprehensive plan in the third paragraph.
I just want to negotiate a settlement.
I just want to negotiate a settlement before we move on to the next step.
It's just, it's all summed up.
I mean, I don't want another, you know.
I added one other sentence, just to drag this into the fourth sentence.
I don't want to, I don't want to add one more sentence.
What I said, what I said, we develop body to flesh for negotiation.
No, I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
See, I just want to come right to the point of all the negotiations.
That can be covered in the background.
There was no comprehensive finding.
I implemented it.
I will say I set in motion the plan because I implemented the plan.
Yeah, because I mean to say that.
So I'm just like somebody else that developed it.
You know, we said earlier that I...
Initiated.
Initiated.
Initiated went too far, but I set it in motion.
I set it in motion.
I set it in motion.
Is that what you want to say?
Well, implemented the plan.
I think Gable Manor is a little bit better than Southern Ocean.
I think it's a, I know the point.
They had to plan without acting on the work.
They were training softly in these old times.
But it comes from page three.
It's in September.
Oh, I know.
I didn't know it was in September.
Yeah, it was $35,500.
Let's just say September 35th.
September.
September 35th.
December.
Was December correct?
Yes.
It wasn't $50,000?
No.
Fine.
And in April?
April of 1970.
All of it?
I guess just around $50,000.
Incidentally, Mr. President, I looked at the charge that you've been made, and I am beginning to think maybe you ought to use the charge, because that is tremendous.
Well, it's a bit of both, you know.
It was Robert, you know, in his briefing of the cabinet, it was quite effective to show that, except that I had the same feeling before I put Roe to charge, or before you raised it, I had written it was out for them.
For the very reason I said, Jesus can be put casually on the charge.
That's the gun.
And I just wonder dramatically what it is.
So you show this, you show that.
But it's still a man.
Of course, even if we have one of those.
The control shot is better.
I think it's not.
I just feel if you've got a problem on sensitivity, some of the visual rays, he looks at categories of a child.
See my point?
That's what you sense, and I agree with you.
I agree with you.
I don't think you're... You see the damn chart that it looks so impressive.
You should use it at your briefings.
Hell yes.
I think that for me to control it is a little risky.
Yeah, because we're eight times as great in 33 months and 60 years.
That's because of the capital.
All right, let's see.
Is that, is that stretching at all?
Well, I mean, that's got categories with eight times the strength of the person.
Well, if you want to say 69, you can say it's five.
Well, is it five then?
Well, that's hard for us.
All right, let's put that to five.
Don't you think so?
I'd have to check the figure, but I think it's five.
Well, then.
It's either 5 or 8.
Yeah, either 5 or 4, if you take 69.
Yeah.
And then that leaves Ted out of it, you know.
I think if you throw Ted in, people will say, well, Jesus Christ, he's making a comparison with Ted.
It's a lie.
I know it's a lie, because he had a hold over Ted.
Ted and his word.
But now, how about, if you got into business about in the first three months of 1971, including the...
Including Laos.
That's what I mean.
You wanted to say that.
You can say that.
I think you should say it.
I tell you, that's what I...
I know you mentioned it earlier, but it seems to me that that's very good for background.
Say, gentlemen, this includes all the cattle for Laos and the cattle should be for this week.
And I just throw that away, which are higher than that $88,000.
Even though that is a third, I mean two-thirds of what they were a year ago, because of the fire cases we expect them to be.
In the first three months this year, because I know that it's just too much to put in here, in the first three months this year they were 60% lower, even less lower than they were last year for sure.
You make that point.
I make it up.
You don't want to put it in because it's a good sentence.
Well, it's a stronger sentence, Kevin.
We put five times as great in the first three months of 1969.
As they were in the first three months of 1969.
I think 69 is the better one to use.
Let's use that.
In the first three months.
I look back here.
Yeah, what about the sentence?
Oh.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good idea.
Significance.
in this same period.
Is that better?
That is very good, Robert.
In this, uh, period?
No.
And the other one?
The other sentence?
The other sentence.
Is there a word later?
No.
It's here.
Uh, uh-huh.
So, as we've declared, you as ground forces, but you as air forces have come to us.
Actually, at the time of all this, you as air forces have been, have been to do plenty of it now.
This is to happen to a government that says we're not giving them the air that we can.
I wonder if you can't cover that in the background.
I just feel, I just feel it now.
It took me to answer that fifth week of that goddamn thing.
I'll take it.
You did.
And you say, now, gentlemen, the president has asked me to predict that he's covering the air source.
That is a bare-faced lie, a bare-faced fabrication.
That's what I would say.
Do you agree, Mr. President, that I think I ought to do the TV and other separate things?
Oh, oh, oh.
I have nothing but the last sentence to contribute to the achievement of our goals in Southeast Asia.
I will put it in Southeast Asia and our goals.
Should I say Vietnam?
Vietnam.
Okay.
Well, I reckon you guys will just sit around there and we can talk to you in the second paragraph.
I wouldn't say we sit here for the other half, but other than that, I'm okay.
All right.
They are casualty.
They work on cam.
They, rather than our casualty.
Yeah, the investment system.
They've got a short effort.
I know.
Any suggestions?
In the next pattern, I would be more of a, you could say, self-deeming job, or is it, with the management answer for it,
against North Vietnamese troops that have been used in the Ocean Territory for eight years to attack South Vietnam.
So it doesn't look as if we've been there.
All right, let me just take that down and turn it out of the way.
I'm taking it from South Vietnam East, but...
Put it by South Vietnamese ground forces.
We can't move in these droves, I guess.
There's no...
There's no way to do it.
Well, okay.
So, how long are we there?
We've been there six years.
That's what it has been.
for eight years.
I wanted to attack our forces in Vietnam.
That's what they, that's what people are interested in here.
And I wouldn't worry about how the place, see what I'm saying?
Which is existing in the ocean territory for six years.
To attack our forces.
You see?
Should we say American Portion?
No.
We're attacking American Portion.
Yeah.
Do I have a Portion?
It's on the left.
Yeah.
It's on the left side.
Page five.
Okay.
I will say second.
I don't know if it's against second.
No, I wouldn't put that in.
Last line, they said, damaging to the capability of the North Vietnamese, not to increase their attacks, which is to launch major offensives.
Yeah, yeah, even more damaging to launch major offensives, to launch major offensives in South Vietnam.
Yeah.
Rather than against.
In South Vietnam.
To launch.
Remember, if you're looking for a guest in Vietnam, you've got to launch major offensives.
against in South Vietnam.
It's better than against Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
It's better than South Vietnam.
Because Vietnamization has succeeded.
Because of the success of the Cambodia operation.
Or, I don't make too much effort.
I can say, I can report that the immunization has succeeded.
That the immunization has succeeded.
That the immunization has succeeded.
I like that.
That's a good suggestion, man.
He's so smart.
He's just on our side a little more.
He'd have all the help.
He's so smart.
He'd stand out and be smart in the Middle East.
Hell, he ought to be scared.
We screw this up.
Forget the Middle East.
I don't get that.
Let me tell you.
We screw up this up.
I'm going to turn around.
I will.
It's a hell of a thing to do, but I will.
I will.
I don't want that.
If America will not come down to the mark for 45,000 Americans dead in Vietnam, now we're going to screw the whole business.
And, Mr. Elliott, that's my idea.
What the hell do you think you have to do with every joke all out there who's got to care about Cali?
Mr. President, the idea that we would buy it would do anything, too.
I don't mind fighting for the Jews.
I mean, I'm for both, because they take a, when you take a 5 million, I'm going to put it to the wall, those goddamn Nazis.
I mean, that's what I do.
I have mixed feelings about it, because they have, you know, the Nazis and everything they've gone through.
Then I want to help them.
But, on the other hand,
You can't have the American attitude be, look, we're not going to do a thing.
The 45,000 Americans are going to go to the back of the war here.
They're not going to do it.
The average person isn't going to do it.
The average person in this country is a sad thing.
I think it's a good thing, though.
Now it's going to be the night I can report to the administration and succeed.
And then strike, and then put the cards in that capital letter.
Because of our progress in the training, Mr. Chesney, we'll achieve that.
And they're powerful, powerful.
That made me believe that I was the greatest man, the father of the line here in the river.
They could say, the Americans welcomed me, and I was kind of good at it.
I've had the best of days, but it's not good for me.
and take over the only thing that's inside.
Before I go to the total, and then I'm starting to be coming to them.
All right.
Today, we can, we can now, we can now see the day.
We can now, our, the day is in sight, is that what you want to say?
Is that what you like?
We have much better people.
Let's see.
Let's see.
The American problems.
South Vietnamese.
We can.
By the way, if you say today.
See, today is exciting.
And they're going to say, why the hell would you say so?
Well, they will anyway.
That's right.
We cover that later.
The American problems.
South Vietnamese.
You'll soon be ready.
What do we say?
What do we say?
The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
I think your insight isn't bad.
You rapidly approach the day and say, no, we can soon see.
No, we can see.
The day the South Vietnamese can take over the entire responsibility.
Should we say that?
I don't know that we can, but let's not give it away.
It goes back, in other words, that's our marketing for the residual forests, all of them are guaranteed.
We should hold on to that until, uh, until the end of the summer.
We've been acting like that for years.
He says we can wheel it.
Well, I think, Mr. Dresden, that we've had a few successes in foreign policy.
And I believe past that we should crucify those goddamn prisoners.
I hope they have now drifted as far as I can see.
Those bastards have, they are the most implacable opponents.
To think what they have done to this country and to us and what we've been through time and again.
Let me say this.
This pulls off.
Don't curse if I don't mean it.
Suck on the wall a little bit.
Just suck on the wall a little bit.
I don't mean that you don't respond as a candidate.
I'm speaking now of the press, all the loci, intellectuals, all the other branches.
Let them come along.
Then all of them are going to come up too.
I'm not going to let them down.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a luge that they don't use.
But if we win, they'll run along.
And in fact, believe me, there won't be anybody, Hunter, Gale, Colon, Christian, anybody, anywhere that has gotten that captain or sent you.
And we're going to go out and put a good will to the south and the far west.
We're going to hear what they say.
The country's going to be done.
These people will get it.
They'll throw it in the tunnel.
Now, incidentally, I talk to all of them about that list you sent in from Florida.
Jesus Christ, he called it.
I think I approve on one name.
Noah.
I approve.
And we are, I think it would be all right.
Wouldn't it?
There's two.
Beyond that, I don't take Tom Gates.
I think Tom is too close to the...
And we don't owe him anything.
He's never done anything for us.
I told Bob that it might be a good, strong, conservative assembly, as far as we're concerned.
We're going to do loads of goddamn things.
From now on, everything is loaded.
But in terms of what we do with these weapons, I've talked to Henry.
They've had it.
And don't get disturbed about it.
We're going to play them.
We're going to play them.
It works, you know, everything they get out of it.
But if we get some successes, we'll play it around, and they'll start sucking around.
But play it just a little cool, so they keep them guessing.
Make them think that maybe they can't get back.
If they can have an election, we run.
Of course we will.
And we just want to take activism.
He didn't speak up.
Where the hell is he?
They come in and they mow it around.
You've got a very tough job.
Why the hell don't they speak up?
Where are they now?
I haven't heard a word.
Lawyers, the rest.
Henry?
David Rockefeller's headed.
Unless he speaks up.
He's a weak man.
Nelson's not weak.
Nelson's just...
Before it's made.
It must be before it's made.
No, I'm going to call him tomorrow and I'm going to tell him.
Here's the change.
Here's the change.
If he squirms, then... No, no, no.
You've got to give him air.
We'll let everybody come back.
Every politician, everybody.
After the election.
After the speech.
If we get any support...
We'll get something.
We'll get something.
We'll get an election.
We'll get a step in.
Quite a few progressions and so forth.
One of the interesting things that happened to Nick Monex, that lost it from George Pundit, he's a great brother of mine.
Is he?
Yeah.
He was giving money to Muskie all the time.
Did you know the Board Foundation has financed all of Muskie's trips to Africa?
Now that's a foundation for him.
Now Muskie is a presidential candidate.
I traveled for eight years
I made a lot of money off of that.
I earned the money by writing to the Reader's Digest, and with a $250,000 law firm practice, and I made $450,000 out of my book.
I financed the whole goddamn thing.
Did I ever hear a word from the Ford Foundation?
The foundation suggested, look,
The next thing you know, the Vice President is going to make his trip abroad.
He was going on a non-partisan basis with me, but, you know, they financed us out of a big muskie.
Or he had his book cut off.
But he was very crazy.
He didn't say anything about what happened.
He said, you know, it's just not going to happen.
Well, he will never say so, but what he did say, I think there is more than one thing.
But one thing he said was, there is a fellow at the U.N. who was working when he was assistant to the president.
He said he called him yesterday over the weekend.
He said that he wanted you to know that Redmond is deadly serious.
He said he wanted to know whether we had an answer to give him.
I made him say, yes, we did.
And, well, the question was going every which way.
He promised to trust the agreement, his words, and so forth.
It's very interesting.
It's typically Russian to try to get it into another channel, too.
But I don't think, my instinct is that the reasons they were holding out in this thread, what this Congress is doing is a quick regression of the reality.
And I, one will lay down, one will lay down.
Well, that won't happen.
Well, it probably will be over.
It will be over no later than a week from today.
And then he'll be back with us.
Well, things better start happening, or... You know, I'm, uh... You two probably don't believe me, but mine's perfectly certain, capable-minded.
even my own, even all of them, I'm perfectly capable of turning right all the time.
I never have in my life, but if I find
There's no other way.
In other words, you know, if you think Cambodia is ours, try to go bomb the goddamn North like it's never been bombed.
That's why we've had these plans gotten ready and decorated just to get these people in there.
We'll start building, and we'll bomb those bashes, and then let the American people, let this country go up in flames.
I believe that you can't go there.
And I believe, basically, that...
What was your suggestion here?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
We can and will.
What are you striking?
I will go directly to a withdrawal from Lee and Mount to say, every decision I have made, I take those out.
And I take those to the Senate.
And I say, we can and will reach that goal through our program.
Yes.
I wouldn't operate the Senate just to do it.
We can and will reach that goal through our program.
Yes.
And we get the next paragraph.
We will get to the beginning of each of these, so.
Now.
Uh.
The uh.
I'm always out there with you, Mr. Joseph.
Did you notice I dropped something there?
You dropped the leaf drop yesterday, and I agreed with it.
He offered me to sign a peace contract.
Do you want to back him?
I think it would be better.
My brother said we're a national security organization, huh?
Yeah.
And all that up on China peace contract.
Well, thank you.
We'll put it in right after the immediate release of all prisoners of war on drugs.
And all of the China peace countries come out there on drugs.
I know why it would be nice.
That's the only reason we have no other important instructors.
We can throw them all outside for you.
I'm a little concerned.
I know of another sentence which was pretty sparse, and I'm going to put it to you from the direction of the end of this paragraph.
I'm going to call again in order to engage the serious folks to speak at the end of the order, which in any event, our participation is drawn to as well.
All right.
I'll call again.
I'll call tonight.
I don't think that's baiting too much.
Tonight,
Otto said, tonight, I again.
Hold on.
An eye.
Button.
Engage in theory.
Go.
Go.
Start series of motion issues.
I want you to engage in series of motion issues.
At the end of the war.
At the end of the war.
At the end of the war.
At the end of the war.
What I had in any event of the dissertation was going to the post in any event.
In which in any event.
American involvement was going to the post.
American involvement.
That's right.
Yes.
That's the word you said.
You said American involvement.
I mean, that just, that isn't really certain.
I don't think you tell them.
They're going to get involved on it.
See what I've got to say.
I think it's a good point to start with.
I think people often just get some of that confidence.
But I don't think strong people are going to get that confidence.
It's the end of the war.
It's the end of the war.
Oh, well, how does it work?
I mean, it gets a little bit of a jackass.
It's better to leave it.
You don't want to just add a sentence, but that's all right.
Go ahead.
Then, on the next page, it gives the timetable for the week, which is all about time.
All right.
Page 20B.
Middle time, sir.
a complete withdrawal of all outside forces.
And then I've had...
I repeat that offer.
As better as that offer still stands.
I repeat that offer.
As better as that offer still stands.
I repeat that offer.
As better as that offer still stands.
I repeat that offer.
And in the next paragraph, Paul finally said he would remove the last remaining incentive.
Paul said he would remove the strongest incentive.
The strongest incentive.