Nixon phone call with Buzhardt on Watergate and John W. Dean III

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Hello?

Yes, Mr. President.

Fred Bizarre.

Oh, yeah, Fred.

Well, uh, as, uh, I guess as you predicted, the immunity thing came true.

Right.

Judge Sirica gave his ruling.

Yes, we anticipated.

That's the use of immunity, as I understand.

Right.

For the Senate committee.

Right.

And with television, et cetera, et cetera.

Right.

Well, that's...

He had no choice on that, did he?

I don't believe so.

Not legally.

Right.

and we won't know later today if Cox is going to appeal.

Well, Cox could appeal this.

He could appeal and ask for a stay from the D.C.

Circuit.

Mm-hmm.

And I just don't know where he'll come out on that.

I don't think it'll get him anywhere if he looks at it from a legal standpoint.

He may not want to make the issue, yeah.

He must make a stronger issue that he's protecting his case.

He's really worried about his case, don't you think, Ferdinand?

I think he is, yes, sir.

Because he should be.

All these people have been convicted already, let's face it.

I mean, everyone.

I mean, I couldn't find an average jury that wouldn't hang them all.

uh in the public eye that's what i mean it's true that's what i mean well that's what matters doesn't it right that's a jury is the public that's true when it comes to the question of pre-trial publicity that's right um but it's it's good that we're able to kind of be right what is the situation now the the format is about the same that uh they do think they're going to talk to him friday that they need to have to think they're going to talk to him friday we're debating

of whether we prepare Thompson for his private session on Friday or wait, and I think we're coming down the side of waiting.

You know, I think maybe you're right.

Four reasons.

One, if we sit down to do the preparation after he heard Dean on the oaths,

In order to work with us in preparing the cross-examination, he's almost got to give us some indications.

You know, we've got a little more leverage to get into what it was Dean said in that session.

And I think that'll be useful.

Yeah.

In other words, you'll know the questions that have to be asked in public and also the ones that could put him on perjury.

That's right.

Well, we'll just have a better feel for it.

And Dean won't get a chance to, you know, modify or shift the emphasis in his testimony, between his private testimony, if we give away what the type of questions will be.

If you give it away, I agree.

He might be a little bit unprepared, so I think we'd better wait.

He would go on publicly then the next week when Brexnet is here.

The next week at some point, depending on when they finish with Mabruta.

Mm-hmm.

That's all right.

Let him go run Breastaffers here, fine.

Right.

They have dropped, uh, Powell Moore from the list, apparently, for now.

Oh, at least Powell Moore.

They were gonna call him.

Who did, who's he?

Uh, he was, he's working here now.

Uh, he was, uh, the assistant to the pressman at Creep.

Oh, I see.

Well, that's a sweet stuff.

And Magruder tried to get him to sort his testimony somewhat also.

And interestingly, he reported it to Bob Martin, and Bob Martin said, don't get yourself in trouble.

Well, it looks like we've got a couple of guys here that were trying to get testimonies screwed around here, Fred, doesn't it?

It does.

Gee, Liz, that's really something, isn't it?

Uh-huh.

McGruder and Dean.

Well, probably working independently.

No?

I don't know.

Well, it's not clear, Mr. Preston, how independently they were working.

It isn't, uh?

No, sir.

Uh...

It's just hard to tell from the scraps that we can piece together here.

Well, in any event, I think your meetings yesterday were probably very helpful and it was good that you got one.

I think they're very helpful.

I think we're really making some progress now.

Yeah.

Interesting that the May 22nd letter from the prosecutors got quite a play in the press this morning.

It did.

It got quite a play, and I hope we'll get more.

We're hoping to get some people to kind of use that as well.

Well, gosh, I can't help but believe that that attack on his credibility will begin to mount now.

But we can't, of course, ever assume anything.

But, goodness, my gosh, if a fellow gets immunity, it's an incentive to lie.

Let's face it.

He's got a... Yeah, that's right.

For your own, I am still working on this cross-examination, Mr. President.

At some point, I'd like to come back and check with you when I get this confirmation.

maybe even Thursday.

Tomorrow I couldn't do it because I'm doing the economic thing, but I could certainly do it, say, Thursday morning.

Fine.

That would be very helpful just to check.

I can make sure I've got your best recollection correct.

Yep.

There's quite a few things here that bear on this that help considerably in trying to pull all the materials together.

Sure.

So it sets a pretty good... Well, any points that you need, why...

Just run them over with me because I don't know what my recollection is.

Well, except the more recent ones I remember, but the things of last year, good heavens, I just can't.

I could no more recall things that happened in 72 except that...

Because I wasn't thinking about the darn thing in 72.

Well, we only have one meeting with Dean that's of any possible consequence in 72, and that was September the 15th.

That's right, when he came in.

He came in and Bob was there for the entire time.

That's right.

And I can assure you there was no talk about money, there was no talk about cover-up, there was no talk about people lying or anything of that sort.

There was a brief report on the fact that they had indicted these people and then on to other subjects that were in his field.

I mean, what's happening to the investigation of the IRS of Larry O'Brien, which we knew was underway and so forth and so on.

it wasn't a writer it actually was a fuse right and uh that was the kind of thing that bob recalls but uh but there's nothing there i i know that one is uh no no problem we're beginning to get a little information just i know you'd be interested in yeah uh geo has geo has had some rather specific information given them on geo yeah

on Democratic finances.

Yeah.

And interestingly, they have not, you know, sort of wrote about it publicly.

Yeah.

So we're going to have to see about this a little bit.

I find that they've been given some rather specific information.

It means some things where they're vulnerable, too.

Yes.

Of course they are.

They haven't.

Oh, gee, always.

We'll certainly get this under lit.

Yeah.

We'll have to see if we can't.

Well, why didn't they come move out on this?

Oh, my goodness.

Why don't they...

They need to release some of this stuff.

Yeah.

Well, Harlow's quite close to the head of GEO.

He recommended him to me, you know.

Yes.

You remember him?

What's his name?

Oh, the fellow you kept on?

Oh, yes.

What's his name?

Oh, he married a girl, right?

Yeah.

Anyway.

I know him well.

Anyway, well.

You could do it from sort of the outside at the moment.

Just say, for God's sakes, how about going into these Democratic things just in a casual way?

How about it?

I remember he worked in the Eisenhower administration, and we kept him on.

I have some good contacts down the line.

Why haven't they gone into those?

Will you tell me?

Because the bureaucracy doesn't want to.

Is that it?

I think they're afraid that they're going to get the people still in the Congress, and of course that's GAO's most sensitive point.

They are very leery.

See, they're an arm of Congress.

They think that Democrats in the Congress are good after them.

All of your opponents from whatever category this time turned out mostly to be senators.

I see.

And this is why they're skeptical about getting into people in the state.

Well, whatever your leaks are, we can at least get them to the press.

We can get them out.

We'll get the same information precisely and build a fire.

Another thing to do is to have a congressman and or senator, Republican, write the GAO and demand the information.

They work for the Republicans, too.

That's a good way to go about it.

That's right.

And we can do this.

Right, right, right.

Well, that's fine.

You know, I think, well, I'm glad you totally stormed all this idea that, I guess, an

you know try to suck it for a request that we postpone but boy we're never going to do that we should never never never that would be a very bad let them put dean on well that's fine i think it's true for a free society and it'll get them a lot of adverse comment i think it'll get them a lot of adverse reaction yeah but they did it it's their responsibility not ours right

And, uh, I don't think it will do any significant damage.

Oh, well...

It might appear to, in the eyes of the public.

Yeah, the public is going to believe everyone, or tend to give, you know, believe to everything a fellow says.

But, uh, Brushnup isn't going to care less, as long as I'm around.

Uh, and he doesn't have to worry about it.

None of this stuff is going to be published in his country unless he tells him they can't, so...

That's right.

And also, instead of that being the only story in town, we'll have a story going, too, which is not bad, too.

That'll be a good competition.

Well, good luck.

All right.

Thank you, sir.

Nixon phone call with Buzhardt on Watergate and John W. Dean III

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 12, 1973

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