Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 38 › Conversation 038-084

Nixon phone call with Dean on Watergate and Jeb Stuart Magruder

Tuesday, April 17, 1973 · 9:19 AM–9:25 AM ET · White House Telephone ·5 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Dean, John W., IIIConversation038-084 onTape 38StartTuesday, April 17, 1973 at 9:19 AMEndTuesday, April 17, 1973 at 9:25 AMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 038-084 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and John Dean discuss the political and legal implications of the ongoing Watergate investigation, specifically focusing on the potential impact of a public presidential statement on the case. They review a document drafted by Leonard Garment and deliberate on whether a public declaration might inadvertently impair the government's prosecution, particularly regarding Jeb Stuart Magruder's expected testimony. The two agree to meet later in the afternoon to further evaluate the legal risks and procedural questions surrounding the court's handling of the case.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Oh.
Hello.
This is Dean.
Yes, sir.
Hi, John.
You got your piece of paper yet?
Which one is that now?
Oh, yes.
I work with Len Garment.
And Len, I think, has a product that he and I concur in.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, yeah.
I got... Len got something to me last night.
Yeah.
He and I...
But that's what you would...
That's the one you would approve?
His approach, or do you have any variations?
Well, I would... Well, let me see, guys.
Here, I got these Italians down today.
That's what you hear in the background.
Maybe about, when we get through with the Prime Minister, maybe about 3 o'clock we can get together.
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Let me see, 12.30, Mr. Batsky.
1 o'clock, 2.30, 2.30, 2.30.
2.30 or 3, I'll give you a ring.
And I want to read the thing, and then there's one other possible approach, and get your judgment on them.
All right, I'm available.
Very helpful.
I mean, I was out with Dr. Bill Rogers, too, so we're trying to sort of get the... As you know, the approach can vary, or it depends on how we handle it.
That's the main thing.
And I'll handle it in a way that differentiates between the whole situation, you know, as it must, depending upon what developments are.
But you would generally say, John, that you think the garment approach is the best one?
I think that at this point is... See, the problem you've got as far as the garment thing and so forth, I had a talk with Peterson, and he's very reluctant to have anything said at this point, you see, because they haven't...
It hurts his case.
Huh?
It hurts his case.
What?
It hurts his case.
Yeah, well, see, McGruder, apart from their talks with your people, it's McGruder that they...
I understand.
They haven't got anything there, and...
He doesn't tell me not to say something, and I said, now look here, I'm going to get out here.
What did you do?
You just get out and do it.
I just can't take responsibility.
I don't think Peterson would, but some guy down in the U.S. turned up and said, well, the president blew the case in order to get publicity, you know?
Well, I don't know that... Not blew the case, but impaired it, you know?
Right, right.
Let me get some more information for you on that potential.
Would you do that?
Yes, I will.
That's the thing that I think is very important here because, I mean, I could have said something Monday and I talked to Peterson and he said, I'd prefer not, you know.
I remember we were talking about resignations and all that sort of thing and he said, no, remember I told you.
And I said, all right, now look here, I just can't
I mean, I can't be in a position of that.
He says, well, the decision is yours, Mr. President.
And I said, well, let me tell you, what's the effect on it?
I said, what's the situation?
So, I don't know.
We don't have any.
Well, look, think about it.
We don't have to do a thing today because they don't think they're going to have John Deere.
They won't have McGruder today.
They said they can't get him.
And probably not until tomorrow.
That'll be their first star witness.
I mean, you know their procedure there apparently is to have him go out and make a statement in open court.
Confess in open court and make a statement apparently.
I didn't know they could do that with a guilty verdict.
That's because Sirica's assisting up on it.
Yeah, that's what they said.
Sirica was...
I was asking the questions anyway, so they said, we'll just make him make a statement.
I wonder about that procedure.
It's a little tough, isn't it?
And it's very risky as far as jeopardizing.
I mean, I would think that Mitchell et al.
have a pretty tough, I mean, have a good constitutional question there, wouldn't they?
I think they would, indeed, if he didn't even open court like that.
Give me a little feeling on that.
Don't let them know I'm checking on that, but give me your little rundown.
I'm digging on that for you.
On that, and I'll call you about 2.30 or 3.
All right, sir.
Okay, okay.
Thank you.
Hope you've got a good night's sleep, as well as you can these days.
But let me say, keep my toe with the other boys.
I said, you know, this is tough for everybody, John.
All of you are good friends, and I said, and you fought the good fight.
And you'll live to fight another one.
That's the important thing.
Indeed.
Right.
No problem there.
Right.
Okay.

NARA Description

On April 17, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and John W. Dean, III talked on the telephone from 9:19 am to 9:25 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-084 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 38-84
Date: April 17, 1973
Time: 9:19 am - 9:25 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with John W. Dean III.

[See also Conversation No. 898-2]

     Watergate
          -Paper with Leonard Garment

     President’s schedule
           -Head of state visit
                 -Giulio Andreotti
           -Lorin J. Badskey
                 -Kiwanis International

     Watergate
          -President’s conversation with William P. Rogers
          -Garment’s approach
          -President’s conversation with Henry E. Petersen
                -Jeb Stuart Magruder
                -Possible statement by President
                                              -47-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                      (rev. January-2011)

                                                                Conversation No. 38-84 (cont’d)

                       Effect on case
                 -Resignations
                 -Magruder’s forthcoming statement
                       -John J. Sirica
                       -Procedures
                       -John N. Mitchell

     Dean’s schedule

     President’s encouragement

Also recorded on April 17, 1973

  • 038-083 9:18 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:18 am and 9:19 am.
  • 898-001 9:18 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:18 am and 9:19 am.
  • 898-002 9:19 AM · 7 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John W. Dean, III met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:19 am to 9:25 am.
  • 898-003 9:25 AM · 27 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 9:30 am.
  • 898-004 9:30 AM · 16 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Leonard Garment met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:30 am to 9:46 am.
  • 898-005 9:46 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:46 am and 9:47 am.
  • 898-006 9:47 AM · 11 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Rose Mary Woods, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:47 am to 9:59 am.
  • 898-007 9:59 AM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:59 am to 10:00 am.

All 53 conversations from April 17, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 038-084, April 17, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-084 (accessed September 18, 2026).