Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 38 › Conversation 038-084

Nixon phone call with Dean on Watergate investigation and Leonard Garment

Tuesday, April 17, 1973 · 9:19 AM–9:25 AM ET · White House Telephone · 5 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Dean, John W., IIIConversation038-084 on Tape 38StartTuesday, April 17, 1973 at 9:19 AMEndTuesday, April 17, 1973 at 9:25 AMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 038-084 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and John Dean discussed the Watergate investigation, specifically the approach being taken by Leonard Garment and the potential impact of public statements. Nixon expressed concern about damaging the case, referencing a conversation with Henry Petersen and the reluctance to make statements that could be misconstrued. They also touched upon Jeb Stuart Magruder's upcoming statement and the judicial procedures involved, with Nixon asking Dean to research the constitutional implications of confessing in open court. Nixon encouraged Dean, acknowledging the difficult circumstances.

Audio

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NARA Description

On April 17, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and John W. Dean, III talked on the telephone from 9:19 am to 9:25 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-084 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 38-84
Date: April 17, 1973
Time: 9:19 am - 9:25 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with John W. Dean III.

[See also Conversation No. 898-2]

     Watergate
          -Paper with Leonard Garment

     President’s schedule
           -Head of state visit
                 -Giulio Andreotti
           -Lorin J. Badskey
                 -Kiwanis International

     Watergate
          -President’s conversation with William P. Rogers
          -Garment’s approach
          -President’s conversation with Henry E. Petersen
                -Jeb Stuart Magruder
                -Possible statement by President
                                              -47-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                                Conversation No. 38-84 (cont’d)

                       Effect on case
                 -Resignations
                 -Magruder’s forthcoming statement
                       -John J. Sirica
                       -Procedures
                       -John N. Mitchell

     Dean’s schedule

     President’s encouragement

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was made by an AI model listening to the recording (gemini-3.8-flash) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Speaker names are the model's inference from the voices and the participant list. Words and names can still be wrong — verify against the audio and the finding aid before citing.

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OperatorGo ahead.
NixonHello?
OperatorMr. Dean.
DeanYes, sir.
NixonHi, John. You got your piece of paper yet?
DeanWhich one is that, now? Oh yes. I worked with Len Garment, and Len, I think, has a product that he and I concur in.
NixonOh, I see. Yeah. Yeah, I got Len, uh, got something to me last night.
DeanYeah. He and I—
NixonBut that's uh, that's what you would, that's what, that's the one you would, you would approve his approach? Or do you have any, any variations?
DeanWell, I would, uh—
NixonLet me see. As you can see, I got these Italians in town today. And that's, that's what you hear in the background. Maybe about, we get through with the Prime Minister, maybe about three o'clock, we could get together. And no, let's see. Wait a minute, wait a minute.
DeanFine.
NixonLet's see. 12:30, Mr. Badskey, of Kiwanis, 1:00, 2:30, 2:30, 2:30 or 3:00, I'll give you a ring, and I want to read the thing. And and then I then there's one other possible approach to get your get your judgment on them.
DeanFine. I'm available.
NixonVery helpful. I mean, I mean, I see the and I said I was out with talked to Bill Rogers, too. So, we're trying to, sort of. As you know, the approach can vary here. Depends on how we handle it. That's the main thing. And I'll, and I'll handle it in a way that that that differentiates between the whole situation, you know,
DeanMm-hm.
Nixonas it as it as it as it as it must, depending upon what what developments are. But I see the But you, you would generally say, John, that you think that the Garment approach is the best one?
DeanI think that, at this point, is is is pretty—
NixonSee the problem we've got, as far and everything and so forth. I had a long talk with Petersen and he's [chuckles] very reluctant to have anything said at this point. You see? Because they haven't—
DeanCase.
NixonHuh?
DeanIt hurts his case.
NixonWhat?
DeanIt hurts his case.
NixonYeah. Well see Magruder, apart from their talks with your people, Magruder, they—
DeanI understand.
NixonThey haven't got anything there and I'm he doesn't tell me not to say something. I said, "Now, look here, I'm going to get out here. What are you What would you do? You just go out and do" I just can't take the responsibility that I don't think Petersen would, but some guy down in the Justice Department said, "Well, the President blew the case in order to get publicity." You know?
DeanWell, I don't know that I don't know that, uh—
NixonNot blew the case, but impaired it you know.
DeanRight. Right.
NixonWhat's your reaction to that?
DeanUh, let me get some more information for you on that potential.
NixonWould you do that?
DeanYes, I will.
NixonThat's the thing that I think is very important here because I mean, I could have said something Monday, and I talked to Petersen, and he said, "I'd prefer not," you know?
DeanMm-hm.
NixonRemember, we were talking about resignations and all that sort of thing and he said, "No." Remember, I told you. And I said, "All right, now look here. I just can't be in that I mean, I can't be in a position to that." He said, "Well, the decision is yours, Mr. President." I said, "Well, let me tell you, what's the effect on it?" I said, "What's the situation?"
NixonSo, I don't know what's your We don't have any Well, look, think about it. We don't have to we don't have to do a thing today uh because they don't think they're going to have they won't have Magruder today, they said. They can't get him. And probably not till tomorrow.
DeanMhm.
NixonThat'll be their first star witness.
DeanMm-hm.
NixonYou know what their procedure there, apparently, is to have him go out and make a statement in open court. Confess in open court, make a statement apparently. I didn't know that they could do that with a guilty plea.
DeanWell, that's because Sirica is insisting upon it, apparently.
NixonYeah. Well, that's what he said. Sirica was was asking, uh, Sirica would ask him the questions anyway, so they said, "We'll just make have him make a statement." I wonder about that procedure. It's a little, a little tough, isn't it, and it's very risky as far as, as as jeopardizing, I mean, I would I would think that Mitchell et al have a pretty, pretty tough, could have a good constitutional question there, wouldn't they?
DeanI think they I think they would indeed, if uh they're named in open court like that.
NixonGive me some, give me a little feeling on that. Don't let them know I'm checking on that, but give me your do a little run out on that and I'll call you about 2:30 or 3:00. Okay? Okay. Hope you got a good night's sleep, as well as you can these days.
DeanI'll do a little digging on that for you.
DeanAll right, sir. Thank you.
Nixon[laughs] But let me say keep your, keep what I told the other boys, I said, "Well, you know, this is tough for everybody, John. You're all, you're good friends." And I said, and they've fought the good fight, and you'll live to fight another one. That's the important thing.
DeanIndeed. Right.
NixonNo problem there.
DeanRight.
NixonOkay.

Also recorded on April 17, 1973

  • 038-083 9:18 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:18 am and 9:19 am.
  • 898-001 9:18 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:18 am and 9:19 am.
  • 898-002 9:19 AM · 7 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John W. Dean, III met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:19 am to 9:25 am.
  • 898-003 9:25 AM · 27 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:25 am and 9:30 am.
  • 898-004 9:30 AM · 16 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Leonard Garment met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:30 am to 9:46 am.
  • 898-005 9:46 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 9:46 am and 9:47 am.
  • 898-006 9:47 AM · 11 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Rose Mary Woods, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:47 am to 9:59 am.
  • 898-007 9:59 AM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:59 am to 10:00 am.

All 47 conversations from April 17, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 038-084, April 17, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-084 (accessed November 5, 2026).