Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 136 › Conversation 136-009
Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Spiro Agnew and 1972 Presidential Campaign
Saturday, July 22, 1972 · 2:37 PM–2:44 PM ET · Camp David Study Table · 6 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler discuss the positive media reception to Vice President Spiro Agnew’s recent 50-state campaign announcement and his aggressive stance against Democratic nominee George McGovern. They also coordinate a strategic response to McGovern's call for televised debates, deciding that Clark MacGregor should issue a rebuttal highlighting McGovern's past voting inconsistencies and asserting that an incumbent president should not debate an opponent. Nixon emphasizes that a debate would inappropriately elevate McGovern's stature and that current international negotiations make such a forum contrary to the national interest.
- Spiro Agnew
- 1972 Presidential Campaign
- George McGovern
- Presidential Debates
- Campaign Strategy
Audio
Transcript (AI-generated)
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Hello?
Yes, Mr. President.
How did Agnew do?
Did you see it yet in the wire?
It's just beginning to move now.
He had a 12-minute press conference.
12 minutes?
Right.
That's enough.
And he said that he... What'd you call me?
You don't have it yet?
Yes, I have the wire service in front of me.
Oh, fine.
He makes the point that he's going to campaign extensively.
He's going to campaign in all 50 states.
All 50 states.
He said, I'm not going into the campaign with a complacent attitude.
He says, I'm going out as if this was... That's rather good, the 50-state thing, isn't it?
Right.
That's the lead.
The latest, President Nixon did disclose today that the Spiro Tiago is running mate again this fall, and the vice president set out immediately on a Republican campaign sweep that ultimately will lead him into all 50 states.
That's great.
He said, I'm not going to campaign with a complacent attitude.
I'm going out as if this were a last-ditch effort.
He said that in appealing especially to independents and Democrats, he will restrict his campaign to what he described as the issue level.
but he added that he would not hesitate to repudiate any personal attack upon President Nixon by the Democratic standard-bearer.
He said that the issue which he will speak out about will be what he called the Democratic nominee's stance on the regulation of marijuana, amnesty for draft registers, the $1,000 giveaway, and his foreign policy attitude that we should bang Hanoi.
asked about the president's selection of himself for reelection, Agnew said, everybody has his moment of insecurity, but I never felt I was in deep trouble.
He declined comment on the possibility that he would seek the presidency in 1976, saying it's a little premature.
And then it goes on to give his schedule.
But that's the first lead out of it.
This particular story doesn't reflect
that he received a question or was able to get in, you know, a positive statement about your accomplishments, but perhaps it will follow in your lead.
Well, he may not in any event.
He can get that out.
Oh, sure, and do that tonight.
His speech is now.
We'll be watched closely for a while.
Right, right.
I think it's handled all right, and your thing went right well.
And he has believed, and he'll have the camera and the whole thing.
I think it's playing fine.
Fine.
I talked to Haldeman earlier.
Apparently...
McGovern this morning sent a telegram to Albert
urging suspension of 315 for a series of TV debates and urge the president to join with him in the request.
McGregor is going to handle this.
I'm not going to get into it.
And McGregor, in the statement we've just worked on, is making the point that in 1964 he voted to table the Mansfield Amendment.
In other words, he took the opposite position he's taking now.
And also he's referring to the past story remarks that no incumbent president should ever debate his opponent.
So if this breaks this afternoon, McGregor's going to hit it with a statement and just get that out of the way.
And he should say that he certainly, that he, that the, what should he say, that the president, that the no incumbent president should debate his opponent.
That's right.
We believe that it would not serve the interest of the country.
And I think McGregor also might say the issues, the gulf,
between these two are so are so great i mean i mean in the gulf the differences between these two are so great that uh they uh they don't need a debate to bring them out they don't right how's that sound yeah good they don't need right there they're so clear they're so clear on defense on on the other ground domestic policy on economic policy are so great they don't need a break to bring them out right it wouldn't serve the interest of the country particularly at this time when very important
negotiations are taking place involving involving matters of very great uh uh importance to the nation and and which cannot be discussed uh cannot and should not be discussed in the debate forum you ought to say that where the nationals interest would not be served i don't think i think it's good for him to just crack it right i think we we may as well get the debate thing out of the way now and if they want to suspend 315 let him squeal about a debate
Of course, having a debate would concern me a bit, because... No, you'd clean him up, but the only thing of it is...
Does Flair have any flair at all?
No, you'd kill him, but the only problem is, then, I mean, he automatically elevates it, gives him prestige.
It is the prestige.
I don't want to give him all that...
I just don't want to give him all that coverage, you know, on prime time.
Let him get his own prime time.
Sure.
But I think that's a very good thing to do.
Very good thing.
And then under that framework, you weave in this other thing, you know, the duplicity of it.
Yeah, you can say it.
It's 64-stand, which is totally opposite to this.
He's totally wrong about that.
And if then they ask, well, what about the fact the president once supported it?
He said, well, the president was then a candidate.
I mean, then was on the other side.
I mean, looking at it now, having served in the presidency and so forth...
particularly at this time this is no time to have debates right and also because the differences are so great between the two that's the key line i think that's it the differences between these two candidates are so clear so clear and so great and that that no debate no debate is necessary to point them up to the american people the issues will be fully discussed but no debate is necessary to point up those differences right and that also a debate would not second point debate would not serve the national interest
as Pastore has indicated, by an incumbent president, and particularly at a time, as is the present time, when international developments are of a very, very high sensitivity, are going on, which a president cannot and should not discuss in a debate, and matters on which, of course, the opposition candidate will be briefed, but which cannot be discussed in a debate.
All right.
Okay.
Okay, sir.
All right.
Go ahead, Ron.
Thank you.
NARA Description
On July 22, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:37 pm to 2:44 pm. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 136-009 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 136-9
Date: July 22, 1972
Time: 2:37-2:44 pm
Location: Camp David Study Table (telephone)
The President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.
[See Conversation No. 197-12]
Vice President Spiro T. Agnew's previous press conference
-Length
-Wire service coverage
-Campaign activities
-Wire service report
-The Vice President’s role
-George S. McGovern's positions
-Marijuana
-Amnesty for draft evaders
-Welfare
-Foreign policy
-Agnew's selection
-Possible candidacy in 1976
-Agnew’s schedule
Ziegler's conversation with H.R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
-McGovern's telegram to Carl B. Albert
-Ziegler’s possible response
-Clark MacGregor's forthcoming statement
-McGovern's vote in 1964
-Michael J. Mansfield amendment
-John O. Pastore's remarks
-Differences between President and McGovern
-National interest
-Possible wording
-Defense policy
-Domestic policy
-The President’s view
-Television coverage
-President's record on debates
-MacGregor's statementAlso recorded on July 22, 1972
- 136-008 2:31 PM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:31 pm and 2:37 pm.
- 197-011 2:31 PM · 4 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:31 pm and 2:37 pm.
- 197-012 2:37 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 2:37 pm to 2:44 pm.
- 136-010 2:44 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:44 pm and 2:46 pm.
- 197-013 2:44 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:44 pm and 2:46 pm.
- 136-011 2:46 PM · 38 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone at Camp David from 2:46 pm to 2:47 pm.
- 197-014 2:46 PM · 39 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Aspen Lodge study at Camp David from 2:46 pm to 2:47 pm.
- 136-012 2:47 PM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Camp David operator talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 2:47 pm and 3:57 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 136-009, July 22, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/136-009 (accessed October 12, 2026).