Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on SALT and US-USSR relations

2:59:16And one more dance, you'll be here today.
2:59:34Good dance.
2:59:35That is beautiful.
2:59:38No, you don't have to hold it up.
2:59:41But you notice how I spanked to him on that defense thing.
2:59:45I handled that.
2:59:46I thought it was perfect.
2:59:47Mike got on the side of that man, sealed him in.
2:59:50I said, we've got to have defense and don't let it down.
2:59:54We've really got to call the case to side.
2:59:56I'm talking about the Soviet Union.
2:59:59The only point in which you put yourself into a slightly too tight a box, but it isn't, it's fine.
3:00:08No, where you said about Solve that we had agreed to settle it this year, we hadn't agreed to settle it this year.
3:00:15Concentrate on the topics this year, because frankly, I think we ought to stretch it out into the summit meeting.
3:00:23I don't want that.
3:00:25We'll think over it.
3:00:28No, all I would say, no, the fact is we've not agreed to settle it this year.
3:00:32We've agreed to concentrate on it this year.
3:00:35But that's a minor point.
3:00:38I don't know how these wires are, but it's...
3:00:47But to give you an example of how well you carried the press off, Zeiglin and Scali were bugging me before your press conference that I should give a background for this afternoon.
3:00:55I said, wait for the president, see whether there's anything left to say.
3:00:59They've both come in now and said that they don't think a background is necessary.
3:01:02I agree with them.
3:01:03I knew that to begin with.
3:01:05I just...
3:01:06I wanted to keep it loose in case there was something.
3:01:11No, no, no, be foolish.
3:01:14Be foolish and you've answered any question that could possibly come up and you've done it better than anyone could.
3:01:26The Soviet are such that they've put out an announcement now with just changing a few tiny little things in there.
3:01:36It doesn't make it worse.
3:01:39It's just that they can never do anything right.
3:01:44The Chinese have never deviated by a comma.
3:01:50Actually, this time, where we say the chances of world peace, they put in the chances of universal peace.
3:01:55It doesn't make any difference.
3:01:57It's just when you have an agreement, universal peace.
3:02:01It doesn't matter.
3:02:05And where we have said in their exchanges during the last year, they put in during an exchange of opinions, which gives the impression that there was some specific meeting.
3:02:17It doesn't, it's really totally material.
3:02:18It's just that they're not a meticulous government.
3:02:27But I think it's, um, and to get to see her again, my God, that's a pleasure.
3:02:40It leaked.
3:02:41It leaked on the wire at 11.58.
3:02:43How?
3:02:44South Florida Embassy.
3:02:47One of the embassies, to put it that way.
3:02:51Two minutes before the announcement, it said, the White House is expected to announce shortly the president will schedule a summit meeting with the Soviet Union, according to diplomatic sources here.
3:03:03That's the embassy that I was talking about.
3:03:05That was two minutes before your time.
3:03:12And I'm sure they thought they were waiting for them.
3:03:15Boy, CBS was still on that list.
3:03:18They were on that list, and they interrupted their programming.
3:03:20Doug Edwards came on, made the announcement, said the president himself had personally announced it in the White House press room.
3:03:31They did this on film, didn't they?
3:03:34Oh, they did it live?
3:03:35You see, but it was Doug Ingersoll, not the president.
3:03:40You see, we were not on the live call.
3:03:43It was filmed.
3:03:48But what I mean is, that will lead to newscasts tonight, won't it?
3:03:52That's what I meant.
3:03:53This is at noon, right at noon.
3:03:54And then at 12.30, they have a little five-minute newscast.
3:03:59And Dan Rather was on at that point with a little more detail on the presence.
3:04:06The other members still haven't had it on.
3:04:10They didn't have it on.
3:04:15What I was going to say is that, Henry, though,
3:04:21in terms of the best thing you know i did this one i didn't push myself as hard as they're carrying of course we have one subject but i but i was preparing all the rest but uh how did you do it no no mr president we have to be quite good answers you think that's just perfect if if we could have written them what will be enough questions
3:04:46Beautifully done.
3:04:48And, in fact, you sort of reached for one or two places in the Vietnam answers to make your point, which was good, which was highly desirable.
3:04:57I mean, you elaborated on that, and you reaffirmed your September 16th.
3:05:03I thought it was a... That's the one you were reaching for.
3:05:13and letting them take care of the village.
3:05:23Excellent.
3:05:24Excellent.
3:05:30I think we may...
3:05:34They must be sorely disappointed at the result of the Vietnamese elections.
3:05:38Not that they give a damn about the free elections.
3:05:41But the things didn't unravel.
3:05:43There haven't been street disorders.
3:05:44The United States hasn't generated a coup.
3:05:53And Hugh has engaged in a massive demonstration of his strength.
3:05:57Actually, between you and me, it may turn out that he was right.
3:06:01He has proved that he...
3:06:05He has proved that the communists, even with maximum dissidence in the non-communist ranks, could not prevent him to run a rigged election.
3:06:12That's a sign of strength.
3:06:16It hurt us domestically.
3:06:17It doesn't bother him in Vietnam.
3:06:19They don't expect an unrigged election.
3:06:31I've got that kettle off to rake in.
3:06:34Informing him that he ought to ask that in.
3:06:41That Ellender is a bloody fool.
3:06:43Oh, Jesus Christ, the old fart.
3:06:45They ought, they've got to run somebody after him.
3:06:47He's just got to.
3:06:48I've seen that.
3:06:49The old, the old, the old.
3:06:51You know, that film, Mr. President, if you... You've seen it?
3:06:54Yeah, it's a two-hour film.
3:06:56It's just a two-hour film?
3:06:58Yeah.
3:06:58What can you do with it?
3:07:00Yeah.
3:07:00He sat there right next to me, explaining it to me.
3:07:05I had my old staff sit through it.
3:07:12That I would rather like to see.
3:07:15He even had the soundtrack going with it.
3:07:18Really?
3:07:18Yeah.
3:07:45I'd like to access anything to be with Harriman now.
3:10:56And, you know, every time we, you know, every time we raise this issue, there's a ton of people who are asking about everything else.
3:11:07I really do.
3:11:09Some partners out there have something about this.
3:11:14Unfortunately, I just felt people would call us.
3:11:17Incredibly, there was only one question.
3:11:20On that one, I told them right at the beginning.
3:11:24I said to the secretary, I'll take questions on any subject, right?
3:11:28You had 18 questions, of which two were on the Supreme Court, and one was on the...
3:11:36And one thing we should do, I think you can do it, is to compare 68 with 72 as this thing developed.
3:11:47Because people had forgotten that in 68 Washington was burning, there was the Tet Offensive.
3:11:54American troops were still going into Vietnam every month.
3:11:58The number was still increasing.
3:12:01And the Russians went into Czechoslovakia.
3:12:04The Chinese weren't talking to us.
3:12:07All of this happened in 68.
3:12:10And if one compares that with where we'll be in 72, unless the whole thing starts under our name.
3:12:14You can't see the races of the sphere of China right by the curse.
3:12:23The Czechs won't.
3:12:26We couldn't have one without the other.
3:12:34The Russian trip will help us believe.
3:12:54You know, I called to bring in last night and said, Anatoly, you've done it again.
3:12:59You've picked up a nickel and lost $1,000 worth of goodwill.
3:13:02And I found out about the transaction.
3:13:06So he called up this morning a personal message from Gromyko saying this was not authorized.
3:13:12They will keep their secrets.
3:13:14They are eager to maintain the confidential channel to the White House.
3:13:18Well, it's just, they'll cut our throats.
3:13:22as easily as anything, but it shows.
3:13:24But it shows how eager they are.
3:13:26The point that I made is this, and I know you're emphasizing this, but I know you get through it, and I understand it.
3:13:36I mean, Charles, and Carlton, and everybody, everyone, too, there's the White House version of domestic shop.
3:13:43It's terribly important, and inevitably dull.
3:13:48Now, it's important to get done.
3:13:50It isn't any value to us.
3:13:51It's a positive issue.
3:13:54It could be very defensive.
3:13:57Oh, and the economy, sir, is the peak of it.
3:14:01It is purely defensive.
3:14:05It's...
3:14:09It's what people want to hear from the President.
3:14:11They think that they might hear it, they like to hear it all the time.
3:14:15Just a little.
3:14:16Not at all.
3:14:16They want to hear about the peace issue.
3:14:19And I think that you can build this up, this idea that man and peace, they come a lot more than you're good.
3:14:24Don't you think so, Mayor?
3:14:26Absolutely.
3:14:27Well, I don't know whether, yeah.
3:14:29I think it's our big issue, whether it can be built more, I don't know.
3:14:32Well, it can be, and, you know, it builds as it happens, partly, too.
3:14:36George said, I don't know if you remember, he said, George, golly, they're absolutely right.
3:14:41He also said they were inclined.
3:14:42He said, well, he said, well, everybody now, there's no, because of the pandemic, that's established once and for all.
3:14:51Nothing is ever established once and for all.
3:14:54People forget.
3:14:54They forget.
3:16:21Because we ought to come out of these other meetings with return visits arranged.
3:16:27In 73?
3:16:28Yeah.
3:16:31The way I'm trying to get all of these agendas set up is so that your performance comes in 73, their performance comes in 72.
3:16:41so that they can...
3:16:48But not only the return visit, Mr. President, because that they can take with anybody, but the delivery of our part of the bargain should come in 73.
3:16:58I saw this as a very shrewd account in this meeting, where he said, well, this is likely to be sort of...
3:17:08Well, that is in fact how we've kept the Middle East from blowing up, otherwise it would have blown long term.
3:17:23I'm having dinner with Sabrina on Thursday night before I go off.
3:17:26And with regard to the case, it's really simple.
3:17:36Oh, I've been goosing them along all along.
3:17:39But here is how I did it, Mr. President.
3:17:43In July, Joe and I asked him, will there be a Russian visit?
3:17:46I said, yes, but you know how the Russians are.
3:17:48They're trying to hold us up.
3:17:49We don't accept conditions, which I also thought.
3:17:52But as soon as some of the requirements are met, like assault agreement or an accidental war agreement or Berlin agreement, then we'll go.
3:18:00Then in August, when we have the accidental war agreement signed and the Berlin agreement signed,
3:18:06I said, already, I said, we'll announce these two agreements soon, and I expect that there will be a Russian invitation now.
3:18:15Then, two weeks later, I told them, we have reliable advance information that a Russian invitation is coming.
3:18:21Then after you saw Gromyko, I told them the invitation has now come, and we are considering it.
3:18:28And on Saturday, I gave them the advance text of the announcement.
3:18:35I said, here's the announcement.
3:18:37You're the first country we are notifying, and special discretion is necessary.
3:18:42And of course, they didn't blow it.
3:18:45Saturday morning.
3:18:46So they, they've been, they've been conditioned every two weeks I've been warning them of some additional little step.
3:18:54But they, in that process, too, they still come back with further talks to your side, by the way.
3:19:01No problem.
3:19:02You're good with this one going, is there anything more?
3:19:05That's why we couldn't put it off.
3:19:07It's, from every point of view, it's perfect now.
3:19:16Going back to the old technique, though, I wonder if, in terms of the press conference thing, if it doesn't see a reusable purpose.
3:19:24I did this with a, I did a lot with Perry.
3:19:27He said I worked hard.
3:19:28You know what I mean?
3:19:29I read his book, and all that sort of thing.
3:19:31But if Michael's talking to you, and Dr. Schultz and the rest of us, Perry has got to answer a hundred questions.
3:19:43He's got ten.
3:19:43Eighteen.
3:19:48Mr. President, on September, your press conference on September 16th kept Vietnam from collapsing.
3:20:02It's as simple as that.
3:20:04It was heading towards a coup and you turned it around.
3:20:07By keeping it from disintegrating, you've given us a new chance at negotiating.
3:20:13That is what
3:20:15That is why the Vietnamese were so tough to me on September 13th.
3:20:20They saw these things sliding into chaos, and why save us by making an agreement?
3:20:26Now, in a way, they're worse off than they were before.
3:20:29The Jew is stronger now.
3:20:32And with the Chinese new announcement, with the Russian announcement, the Jew is stronger than ever.
3:20:40And, uh,
3:20:46I think we have the chance again with that new proposal we gave to them.
3:21:02Oh, I thought your last two conferences... Well, in foreign policy, Mr. President, you ought to assume that you're well prepared, because you really...
3:21:24You're really, all you need there is a view of the morning.
3:21:28Yeah, you need some of the new facts.
3:21:33Schultz says he needs to see you on a later date, on a paper.
3:21:43Ten minutes.
3:22:26If Kennedy, who told me there's a column, somebody told me there's a column, Rosewood told me about the column in the Daily News with the Chicago Daily News.
3:22:46Kennedy had done this, and what if Mason had done the bale of pigs, the lard, the tobacco, Berlin and a few other things?
3:22:58We could get a hold of Schultz and tell him that I have to go, uh, I, I, I, the main thing is I don't want to get in a big battle, you know, with Scott and that economic thing.
3:23:07There's nothing I can do about it.
3:23:08I don't need to hold his hand on him.
3:23:12This one, right?
3:23:13He's coming down.
3:23:14So, again, watch for 10 minutes.
3:23:17Okay, good.
3:23:17One thing you did very well and that it's important for us all to stay away from is to avoid any impression that we and the Russians have a special relationship and because if the Chinese think we and they are playing for a condominium I mean you specifically did about it and it was very good
3:23:47So I don't suppose you'll make any comments this afternoon in the Congress, but you have to be... Oh, no, no, no.
3:23:53I have to be involved.
3:23:57I have to be involved.
3:24:00I'm a letterman.
3:24:01I never believed in it.
3:24:03I never believed in it.
3:24:13The idea is that we are going to meet negotiations with separate entities.
3:24:19You know, the hell of it is we've done everything you said you would do.
3:24:23We've linked them together.
3:24:24We've got our preconditions met.
3:24:26We've held out trade.
3:24:28We've held out trade until there was political progress.
3:24:33And I'm going to tell, now that we've made the announcement, I'm going to tell Stans that he can go.
3:24:41I'm going to tell Dupree tomorrow.
3:24:45Good.
3:24:46I'll tell Dupree then on Thursday night that he can, that he's going.
3:24:54And that he'll have a wife, Charlotte.
3:25:01That's good.
3:25:02So we get to know them.
3:25:06But the only thing is if these guys ever put together everything I'm telling them,
3:25:12I told the Chinese that the only ones who have an interest in continuing the war in Southeast Asia are the Russians.
3:25:19Because they want to dominate Southeast Asia via Hanoi.
3:25:25I told the Russians.
3:25:26I think we got, I think I got that pretty good question.
3:25:30Where I said we hold the thing as war, but we're not going to sit on the situation.
3:25:36Okay.
3:25:36Okay.
3:25:40George.
3:25:43The Labor people have said they will serve on the pay board.
3:25:57They've issued a statement that says it's all their way, as we expected, but that's their statement.
3:26:14My judgment is the thing for us to do is say, well, I have drafted your statement.
3:26:21That is a provocative statement, but nevertheless, it basically says they agree.
3:26:32Now, Meany called me, and he read that you had said you would have a statement this afternoon.
3:26:42And his basic message was, uh...
3:26:51I'd say that we, uh, let's make clear that, uh, we, we, at this moment, we share, uh, the, the, the old plan.
3:27:03We urge the Congress, uh, to, uh, to, uh, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,
3:27:15Right.
3:27:16No, I think that's...
3:27:30And working towards the goal of full employment, which some have said is important, we believe, I believe that the prompt action on the tax proposals in the Senate is essential, just to add that as a paragraph, so that we are clearly at odds on that note, without saying that we disagree with them.
3:27:55I've got to be allowed to go in, George, or otherwise it would appear, I think, by silence that we...
3:28:01I think that's a good job, too.
3:28:11That's as good as you can expect out of them, isn't it, George?
3:28:15I think they have...
3:28:17He says, we're going on the statement.
3:28:19I notice the president says that he stands on what Connolly said.
3:28:24I said, that's right, we think they're the same.
3:28:26And he said, well, we're going on the statement with the president's initials on it.
3:28:31I said, that's fine.
3:28:35But we could have an endless argument back and forth.
3:28:40Just say that I consider, I would say to that, George, that I consider this take a summary of what Tom and others have said.
3:28:49That is just as an active summary of what we've said.
3:28:54Fair enough.
3:29:00Right.
3:29:00What would you think of the idea of your picking up the phone and calling me and telling him,
3:29:07that you welcomed his participation on the board and you were issuing a statement to that effect.
3:29:14Okay.
3:29:15Well, I just, I was, John and I were talking about this at lunch when this came in, and we started a draft.
3:29:21No John, not Erlichman.
3:29:22Connolly's still in Texas.
3:29:25And I haven't talked to him about this.
3:29:31I don't think it's necessary, but if we want...
3:29:36His mood right now, despite the statement in his telephone conversation with me, his mood was hoping the president would, uh, would say, all right, let's cooperate.
3:29:48Uh, Mr. Meany, please.
3:29:58George Meany.
3:29:58Can you get around to my phone?
3:30:10I was trying to write something like, I also reaffirmed my, um, the importance of the U.S.
3:30:41Our goal is that the goal is full of fun.
3:30:45I believe that the goal is full of fun.
3:31:13by the Senate, action by the Senate, on my tax proposals, on my tax proposals, will that mean that I have to make, that I have to make a job
3:31:47i just got your
3:32:09I greatly appreciate your willingness to work on this thing.
3:32:17And you saw the piece of paper that you sent over.
3:32:22That is my understanding as to what the policy is.
3:32:26I think that when I told the press, I told the press about Collins.
3:32:30I read the comment in characterly, and then this piece of paper is, and we've also checked it with Connelly, and he totally agrees with it too.
3:32:38So you see, we've got Connelly, and as I understand it, more precise.
3:32:46Well, I looked it over, and as you notice, I think you've got a copy of it, I think.
3:32:49But I want you, I did want you to know that Connelly also has seen it, and agrees that that's what he meant to say.
3:32:55Is that fair enough?
3:32:59Right.
3:33:04Look, the main thing is to make progress, and three and a half's a damn good number.
3:33:09Right.
3:33:10Right.
3:33:10Yeah.
3:33:12And I hope, I will put out the statement, and say I welcome the participation of Senator Sarah, and bring down the question.
3:33:21I'm going to, the only thing that we do have some agreement on is on the TAC proposal, but I, of course, have to, if you can imagine, we've got to push for those.
3:33:32Yeah.
3:33:32Well,
3:33:34Sure, that's fine, but we do have to make sure that everything works, which it might, and small jobs.
3:33:40Okay.
3:33:40I have, I also require my concern that if the economy expands and I pay full-appointment contracts and I'm set up by tax proposals, which will create one and a half million jobs, half a million, or more, I think, costs that we can have.
3:34:03Right doctor, right there.
3:34:20Oh, I was wondering about your business calls.
3:34:23They've been making them, and I haven't had a feedback yet.
3:34:27I haven't been making them, but Commerce Department, Peter Flanagan, and the labor people have been doing it.
3:34:36And we have been circulating the thoughts of Leslie Ample, Rumsfeld in Indianapolis.
3:34:42I got him on the phone, and he's making a speech right now.
3:34:48Peter has called Arthur.
3:34:49I talked to Arthur.
3:34:50Well, there's no point in operation.
3:34:58That's right.
3:35:00I think what has been achieved here, from our point of view, is that here are these gigantic increases coming up.
3:35:18and labor has accepted a measure of responsibility for them and for doing something about getting them down.
3:35:25Pretend that is a coup of the other party.
3:35:28Do you have a background on this today with the crisis?
3:35:31I think this is very important.
3:35:35All right.
3:35:35I will try to steer it away from this argument about who won.
3:35:38The thing is, I can just go out and say that the important thing is now
3:35:45There's a question.
3:35:46Why don't you just say the country won?
3:35:47Why don't you just say that the country won?
3:35:50Because without labor's cooperation, this program would not work.
3:35:54And now labor is responsible to try to hold down these women increases.
3:36:00And we believe that this is a very good program.
3:36:03I think that's something along that line, very, very briefly.
3:36:06I think maybe a do-to-do then, Georgie, would be helpful.
3:36:08In other words, so that they don't do it right on the record, too.
3:36:14Uh, where did I get the height?
3:36:16And then I'll, uh, go out and do it right now.
3:36:18I think fast, I'll be able to do it right now.
3:36:20And then I'll just stay up there.
3:36:44You know, it's an interesting thing.
3:36:46I'm sure she realized.
3:36:48I mean, she put her right on the tightrope when she said the guy's got to choose.
3:36:59This China-Russia thing, the most significant thing that has happened in the modern world, the United States and the United States, we can talk about good relations with Bolivia or Chad.
3:37:08What the hell difference does it make?
3:37:12Except Bolivia and Chad.
3:37:13with the Russians and Chinese is indispensable, or you're going to have a very dangerous world.
3:37:18And this is an enormous, it's an enormous achievement, even the very fact that we're going to leave.
3:37:27Well, I think the, uh, the Chinese and all the rest of the Carpathians didn't know how to do it, because they all went there half and half.
3:37:34Well, they meant to talk, but with no special, they had no purpose, whereas it seems to me what, at least as I would read this announcement,
3:37:43what it means is given your past statements i say this without knowing much about it that there must have been enough substantive progress by people who have been thrashing around in the underbrush to justify a meeting at the summit you've always said that as your that's when a summit meeting can do some good not at the end there is a lot of progress
3:38:11You want me to have one of the girls take it?
3:38:53The Canadians worked very hard against this, and they never got it, never got labor to lift a finger in all of their efforts to do something about this problem.
3:39:05I think I have a statement with regard to the response.
3:39:11And it occurred to me, and it occurred to him,
3:39:16I could go on, but I want George to read one of them a little, on the record.
3:39:24And I was thinking, I might go out and just read this page.
3:39:26I go out and just read this page, and I'll just say, well, you were having this meeting, and this meeting.
3:39:39Well, I think it's, uh...
3:39:54Why leave a space of time when people are speculating about things otherwise meaningful?
3:39:59So what should we say?
3:40:03So let's take two o'clock.
3:40:05Let me speak for two minutes.
3:40:09They've gone to lunch.
3:40:10Also, they've got a lot of writing to do.
3:40:14All right, we'll go to two o'clock.
3:40:24Good luck to you.
3:40:26To Satan.
3:40:29What are you going to tell them?
3:40:31Maybe not tell them I'm coming.
3:40:33No, I won't say you're coming.
3:40:34I'll say come back at 2 because we have a statement on me.
3:40:39Let him go.
3:40:40Yes, sir.
3:40:40Let him go.
3:40:41Let him film George.
3:40:42He's on the record.
3:40:43I want him to be on the record.
3:40:46That's a good idea.
3:40:47He's got to let it go and say the significance of this is in their participation.
3:40:52And you can find out the Canadian experience.
3:40:55and he's going to say how the British are going to deal with it.
3:40:57I'll start right out.
3:40:58Gentlemen, before I take your questions, let me say there's going to be a lot of them.
3:41:03Question 2-1, and just let me say the country one, because basically the President's feeling...
3:41:11The President's feeling, the U.S. President's feeling, it's our feeling, I say it's our feeling, is that based on what has happened in other countries, that without organized labor cooperation, a program of wage and price restraint will not work.
3:41:33And this is a, this we consider a very significant
3:41:38Would you also, uh, I, uh, would you also say that, uh, Secretary Collins, who's in Texas on the way out here, says, uh, Peter, it's you?
3:41:45Right.
3:41:46Then, uh, then go to your questions on that.
3:41:51I'm just saying, you're just popping that right out there.
3:41:59Yeah.
3:41:59Call John and tell him what, what we're doing.
3:42:03Yeah.
3:42:04Very good idea.
3:42:08Okay.
3:42:08We do want to follow up.
3:42:12Okay.

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on SALT and US-USSR relations

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on October 12, 1971

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