Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 38 › Conversation 038-031
Ehrlichman & Kleindienst on Watergate and Jeb Stuart Magruder
Saturday, April 14, 1973 · 5:15 PM–6:08 PM ET · White House Telephone · 12 min
AI Summary
John D. Ehrlichman briefs Attorney General Richard G. Kleindienst on his internal investigation into the Watergate scandal, specifically noting that Jeb Stuart Magruder has decided to cooperate with federal prosecutors. Ehrlichman reports that Magruder's new testimony implicates multiple high-level figures and contradicts previous statements, significantly altering the legal landscape of the case. They discuss the necessity of maintaining proper legal boundaries in information gathering, the potential appointment of a special counsel, and plans to coordinate with Assistant Attorney General Henry Petersen to ensure ongoing investigations proceed without procedural errors.
- Watergate
- Jeb Stuart Magruder
- John Mitchell
- Obstruction of justice
- Special counsel
- Department of Justice
- Perjury
Audio
Transcript (AI-generated)
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Hi, John.
Hi, John.
How are you?
Good.
How are you?
How was the Gulf?
Half good and half bad.
First half good?
Well, the middle was good and then— Listen, I want to bring you up to date on what I've been doing.
Okay.
For about the last three weeks—well, since I saw you—before I saw you on San Clemente, the President's had me trying to gather together, as you know, a certain amount of law and facts.
be in a position to kind of substitute for Dean and to advise him on involvement, but even broader involvement in this whole transaction.
Yesterday, I gave him my summary.
And admittedly, it was hearsay.
Some of it pretty reliable, and the whole thing fit together pretty well as at least a working hypothesis.
things that I told him was that I had encountered people who appeared to be reticent to come forward because they somehow thought that the presidency was served by their not coming forward.
So he has had me today begin a series of conversations with people to straighten them around on that point.
And the first one I talked to was your predecessor.
Then I talked to
Pretty hard to talk to those two when they've testified under oath before a grand jury.
Well, as it turns out, I was just a little late in talking to Magruder because he had just come back from telling everything to the U.S. Attorney.
He had decided to come clean.
No kidding.
Magruder?
Yep.
And he had his informal conference.
minutes before he came in to see me.
And would that be inconsistent with his testimony?
Dramatically inconsistent.
Jesus Christ.
And he implicates everybody in all directions, up and down, in the committee to re-elect.
Me too.
Yep.
Turkey.
My instructions were, after I had completed, well, I might say I also talked to a couple of other people who were around here.
And just to pass the word to encourage them to testify if the only reason they were not testifying was some concern about the presidency.
Also, being very careful to say that I recognized everybody had rights and that it didn't mean in any way to indicate that they should not avail themselves of their full rights.
Now, Reuter, then, let me... Yeah.
As a result of what you just told me, it would indicate that there would be a substantial case of perjury against Mitchell and McGregor in the first instance, so complicit in the overall conspiracy.
More than just a participation in a conspiracy, Dick.
Principles.
Yeah, they're principles.
John Mitchell had ever known that and let it go.
Well, I must say that my conversation with him was reassuring in that regard.
He's very steadfast in his protestations of innocence.
I don't understand what Magruder said.
Well, the Magruder case is not only testamentary, but it's circumstantial.
It is persuasive to me.
But Mitchell denied it.
I saw Mitchell first.
I didn't have all this Magruder business.
Now, here I am, a citizen of the United States and the designated inquirer with a body of information.
My purpose and intent was to advise you of this when I got finished with this process and tender this information for whatever purpose it would serve, recognizing that up until just a few minutes ago it was almost entirely hearsay.
McGruder has just unloaded on me the substance of his conversation with the U.S. Attorney, informal conversation.
And I find that I now have very little to add to what McGruder has already given the U.S. Attorney.
That's very good.
I felt that I should go forward and at least advise you of this.
John, at this point, it seems to me you're going to have to be very careful.
Now, let me spoil your afternoon completely, will you?
One of the things Magruder told me was, and his attorney who was with him corroborated, was that they are very concerned about Dean's facility for advising people at the committee of the proceedings of the grand jury.
Well, he was apparently informing Magruder and others of what the grand jury was saying and doing.
And Silbert or someone else said to Dean's attorney, well, we know the source of Dean's information and it was from higher up.
That's pretty speculative because I don't think Henry Peterson would have told him.
Well, anyway, there's that.
In any event, I remember what you told me before.
And I originally had thought that perhaps something would be served by you and Snead coming in and the three of us visiting.
But this thing has taken the Magruder bounce.
And I'm inclined to think now that you ought to just tell Snead the substance of this conversation.
He and I have kind of agreed.
stay out of Watergate Bay.
And he knows nothing about it, has participated in no conversation.
That's probably just as well, don't you think?
We better have one son of a bitch in that department who's got...
He can make the decisions that need to be made from here on.
I think at this point, my boy, we ought to think very hard on the suggestion I made to you.
Well, I think the President's feeling is that Snead could do that.
He could do it, but you need credibility with it.
Well, I think he's pretty firm on that.
He is.
I'd sure talk to him about it.
Okay.
Well, I think you should on Monday.
I really would, John.
All right.
Because, you know, it's no question, but that's the thing about it.
He was never there during any material period of time.
He is, however, the Deputy Attorney General.
He's my subordinate.
Okay.
Okay, you give it some thought and we will too and then we should talk on Monday.
You know, I thought of Steve in this role because he stayed out of it up to now.
Okay.
And I think that's why you might need a guy on the outside.
All right.
Incidentally, there were two or three people who were suggested in that role.
The Chief Justice contributed to this.
Rogers passed those along to me.
Yeah.
This guy was part of a Sears.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, my boy.
Well, I just wanted you to have a nice time this evening.
Don't forget my tender.
If there's any way that this hearsay of mine that I've collected is in any way useful, I'd be glad to make it available.
My present thinking is that I could add very little to what Magruder just told me.
McGruder is a primary witness type.
Yep.
You've got to be very careful what you do from here on out, John.
You know, sometimes you don't put yourself in the position of helping to purchase anybody's rights.
That's why I'm calling you, my dear.
Yours is a very goddamn delicate line as to what you do to get information and give it to the president and what you can do and give information to the Department of Justice, you know, to enforce the law.
Well, you're my favorite law enforcement officer.
It's going to be tough times.
Do you want me to give you anything additional on Monday?
Who did you talk to, John?
What do you mean?
Mitchell and Magruder.
Those are the only two?
Well, no.
I've been talking to people for three weeks.
I've talked to everybody but the milkman.
The president's staff and outside and people's lawyers and every damn thing.
Until today, when the Magruder situation came up, did you come across any direct evidence that in your opinion, amount of conduct that violated the law?
Yes.
You did.
Let me talk to Henry Peterson.
Okay.
All right.
Here's what line we ought to follow here.
If you talk to
besides myself.
But also the person that you talked to who would give you information about the commission of a crime, you know that too.
You know I've talked to him?
No, you've talked to people that gave you this information.
I've talked to them.
In some cases they know I've talked to other people.
I didn't know that because, you know, they knew the source of my leads and so forth.
Who else does Magruder implicate besides himself?
Who else?
Martian.
Border.
But Grutter would say that Martian knew about this before the discovery?
No.
No, he's largely implicated on obstruction of justice.
After what?
No.
What's LaRue implicated?
Everything.
Did he make any statement with respect to the use of campaign money to pay these guys off?
I guess he knows that.
He just was having a terrible time living with it.
He didn't see any point in waiting any longer.
The attorneys said they analyzed it very carefully and see no advantage to waiting and every advantage to getting in now.
A couple of very bright guys.
I've got their names over there, but I can't tell you now.
Birnbaum and somebody else.
Sears, I think, is the other guy.
I don't have the names right.
You're going to be in town Monday?
Pardon?
You're going to be in town Monday?
Sure.
You're going to be in town tomorrow?
Sure.
I might want Henry and I to get together with you tomorrow.
Just so we don't make any mistakes.
All right.
All right.
Let me know.
Thanks, pal.
I'll see you there.
Are you going to the same dinner?
Oh, yeah.
I'm going to go and see Bernstein and what's-his-name get their awards.
Okay, smart.
All right.
NARA Description
On April 14, 1973, John D. Ehrlichman and Richard G. Kleindienst talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:15 pm and 6:08 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-031 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 38-31
Date: April 14, 1973
Time: Unknown between 5:15 pm and 6:08 pm
Location: White House Telephone
John D. Ehrlichman talked with Richard G. Kleindienst.
[See also Conversation No. 428-28C]
[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was prepared Richard Nixon’s Special
White House Counsel for Watergate Matters and submitted to the Committee on the Judiciary of
the House of Representatives. This transcript can be found in Submission of Recorded
Presidential Conversations (SRPC), pages 629-638 (1-10). Please refer to the logging below.]
Golf
Watergate
-Ehrlichman’s investigation
-Ehrlichman’s report, April 14, 1973
-Hearsay
-President’s instructions
-Ehrlichman’s conversations, April 14, 1973
-John N. Mitchell and Jeb Stuart Magruder
-Magruder’s conversation with US Attorney
-Previous grand jury testimony
-Mitchell
-Perjury and conspiracy cases
-Ehrlichman’s conversation with Mitchell
-Ehrlichman’s conversation with Magruder
-John W. Dean, III’s advice to Committee to Re-elect the President
[CRP] staff concerning grand jury’s actions
-Earl J. Silbert’s statement concerning
Dean’s source
-Henry Petersen
-Joseph T. Sneed’s role in Watergate
-Possible special counsel
-Warren E. Burger and William P. Rogers
-Ehrlichman’s investigation
-20-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Conversation No. 38-31 (cont’d)
-Ehrlichman’s legal position
-Extent
-Evidence of violation of law
-Petersen’s advice
-Magruder’s possible testimony
-Dean, Frederick LaRue, Robert Mardian and Herbert L. (“Bart”) Porter
-Mardian
-LaRue
-Motivation
-Birnbaum and Sears
Ehrlichman’s schedule
-Meeting with Kleindienst and Petersen
-White House correspondents’ dinnerAlso recorded on April 14, 1973
- 038-028 3:55 PM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 3:55 pm and 4:58 pm.
- 038-029 4:58 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon talked on the telephone from 4:58 pm to 4:59 pm.
- 428-027 4:58 PM · 50 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 4:58 pm to 4:59 pm.
- 038-030 5:15 PM · 15 sec — John D. Ehrlichman and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:15 pm and 6:08 pm.
- 428-028 5:15 PM · 57 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman, White House operator, Richard G. Kleindienst, and Julie Nixon Eisenhower met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:15 pm to 6:45 pm.
- 038-032 6:08 PM · 49 sec — Julie Nixon Eisenhower and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone from 6:08 pm to 6:09 pm.
- 428-029 6:45 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 6:45 pm and 8:11 pm.
- 428-030 6:45 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 6:45 pm and 8:11 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 038-031, April 14, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-031 (accessed October 5, 2026).