Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 5 › Conversation 005-139

Nixon, Hébert & Laird on Vietnam War and Pentagon Papers

Wednesday, June 23, 1971 · 2:39 PM–2:44 PM ET · White House Telephone ·4 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Hébert, F. Edward;  Laird, Melvin R.Conversation005-139 onTape 5 (tape position 04:17:17–04:21:37)StartWednesday, June 23, 1971 at 2:39 PMEndWednesday, June 23, 1971 at 2:44 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 005-139 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon consulted with House Armed Services Committee Chairman F. Edward Hébert and Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird regarding legislative strategies and the security of classified documents. Nixon expressed gratitude for Hébert’s support in the upcoming House-Senate conference on Vietnam withdrawal language, emphasizing the need to prevent legislative mandates that could undermine ongoing peace negotiations. Additionally, the participants discussed the handling of leaked government documents, with Hébert assuring the President that he would implement strict security protocols to prevent further disclosures if the materials were referred to his committee.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

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Hello.
I'm Congressman Abare.
Hello.
Mr. President.
Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to tell you that I was very grateful in reading the news reports last night and this morning for your statement on that House conference, House conference.
I tell you, boy, without stand-up guys like you, we might as well call Mr. Bruce home.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
That's true.
A good citizen just walked in here now.
Is that right?
The one Melvin Orr lad.
Oh, yeah.
Can you vouch for him?
Now, listen, don't leave any secret papers around while he's there.
I won't leave any secret papers around.
He's afraid he's going to haul it out.
Incidentally, though, on that, I do want you to know that I'm most grateful.
And actually, I hope that you can...
I mean, in the conference, I mean, all you need is, frankly, is just to take out some of that language, you know what I mean?
After all, the House has voted one way, the Senate is in the rest, and as I told Ziegler to point out,
The Senate's only one-half the Congress.
Only one-half the Congress, and I'm going to have a very short conference.
I think I'm only going to put about five men on the conference.
Is that right?
Yeah, from our side.
All these guys are proud and dry.
Can you have good, strong men?
Oh, I'm going to have strong men.
Who will be on the other side?
There will be less than Okonski.
Unless, of course, unless there'll be one.
Who will be on the Senate?
On our side, there'll be Abar, Fisher, and Mel Price.
Well, that's a good bunch.
No, no, we're solid.
Now, what about the Senate side?
Who will they have?
Well, in any event, I'll tell you why this language is so important.
We just need, as I've said several times, we can't hope, and we are in the process now, I can tell you, of conducting, trying to conduct some negotiation.
The time will come when we can't do anything, and we will not, but we just really need to get
any kind of directive out because if you put yourself in the position of the enemy, if the enemy says, yeah, they're going to get out of need, hell, they ain't going to negotiate with you.
Well, hell, all they've done, Mr. President, on this thing is just nine months is the same as that amendment was offered before.
Sure.
It doesn't mean anything else.
That's right.
That's right.
No, no, don't worry.
I'm going to stay on track.
They won't have a bill.
Right.
Go ahead.
Incidentally, on this paper thing, Mel will put you in.
Can I get him on the phone?
I want to tell him what to say.
Listen, I think we can work this thing out.
If I get a hold of those papers, I'll handle them, but nobody's going to get out of them.
Right.
Well, the main thing is we'll, as you know, it's no skin off our back, but we've got to protect the security of our sources.
And I'll explain.
Mel just got here.
I got time to explain what I have in mind.
If I get a hold of them and they send me in regular order, I'll make such conditions and rules that we won't have many visitors.
Right.
And we'll know exactly what they want, and I'm going to have it printed in big letters, the criminal implication.
The other thing is, of course, that on the Senate side is that... Well, that's their problem.
We don't know.
Okay.
That's their problem.
Fine.
You tell Laird.
If anything gets out, I'm going to blame it on him and not you.
On him.
Wait a minute.
Him and not you.
Okay.
Yes, Mr. President.
I just told the chairman, he said, if any papers leaked while you were up there, he's going to blame it on you and not him.
I know that probably.
Well, he's sure a stand-up guy.
I hope that if they, you know, they've been talking, they don't know what they're going to do, a joint committee or a House and Senate or what, but...
What do you think they'll find and come out?
They do.
They won't go giant.
They won't.
All right, fine.
Well, let's tell the House to get out front and have its hearings first.
Oh, well.
They just won't go that way.
Well, that's all right.
That's all right.
Each will do its own way.
And I think we can't really... No, no, we can't say.
We can't say that.
It's up to them.
Up to them.
All right.
The Carl feels rather strongly about it, and so does Eddie and Jerry.
Well, look, whatever the house wants, I'm for.
Okay, fine.
Bye.

NARA Description

On June 23, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, F. Edward Hébert, and Melvin R. Laird talked on the telephone from 2:39 pm to 2:44 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 005-139 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 5-139

Date: June 23,1971
Time: 2:39 pm - 2:44 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with F. Edward Hébert.

[See Conversation No. 258-38]

     Hébert's statement on House-Senate conference
         -David K.E. Bruce

     Melvin R. Laird

     Forthcoming House-Senate conference
          -President's conversation with Ronald Ziegler
          -Leslie C. Arends
          -Alvin E. O'Konski
          -Hébert
          -O. Clark Fisher
          -Senators
          -Vietnam negotiations

     Pentagon Papers
          -Laird
          -Administration's response

The President conferred with Laird.

           -Possible leak of U.S. papers
           -Possible Congressional action
                -Carl B. Albert
                -Gerald R. Ford

[End of conferral]

Also recorded on June 23, 1971

  • 258-038 2:39 PM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon and F. Edward Hébert met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:39 pm to 2:44 pm.
  • 005-140 2:45 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Pierre S. DuPont talked on the telephone from 2:45 pm to 2:46 pm.
  • 258-039 2:45 PM · 46 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, Alexander P. Butterfield, and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:45 pm to 2:46 pm.
  • 258-040 2:45 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Pierre S. DuPont met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:45 pm to 2:46 pm.
  • 005-141 2:46 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Charles S. Gubser talked on the telephone from 2:46 pm to 2:48 pm.
  • 258-041 2:46 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Charles S. Gubser met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:46 pm to 2:48 pm.
  • 258-042 2:48 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., and Garry E. Brown met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:48 pm to 3:04 pm.
  • 005-142 2:51 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Garry E. Brown talked on the telephone from 2:51 pm to 2:52 pm.

All 52 conversations from June 23, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 005-139, June 23, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/005-139 (accessed September 18, 2026).